Indoor Flying in Northern Michigan
From: John Zook johnzook@voyager.net
Hi Ken and to all in the club!
I wanted to tell you about my experiences flying indoors. Some of the members of
our small club in Charlevoix have been involved with this for a short time now. We started out with one person trying it and now
we have three and several more people interested .
Last Saturday, Feb. 22, we got together for an afternoon of fun and flying, even
though the weather outside was typically northern Michigan. I brought my GWS Tiger Moth and Slow Stick. Jim Maine (club
member) brought his newly completed DJ Aerotech Road Kill Curtis Wright Jr, as well as his recently completed Sig Demoiselle.
I was very impressed with the way the Demoiselle flew inside this small gym.
After experimenting with different props and battery packs, the little antique ROG’ed and flew around the gym in a most scale
like manner. It is a beautiful little plane to watch in the air, as well as fascinating to see the swivel tail operate as did the original
did.
The Curtis Wright would ROG, however it seemed to have a problem making
turns, which was attributed to its straight wing (no dihedral) and seemingly weak ailerons. Since then Jim has changed the wing
to full dihedral and is now waiting for this Sunday to try the new version.
I flew the Tiger Moth around the gym several times making a constant turning
maneuver in order to avoid flying into the walls, which seemed too close for comfort. I managed to make a number of circuits
around the gym until the little Bipe climbed a bit too high into the rafters, and as I over corrected it downward into the stage area
where a heavy curtain sent it to the floor, breaking the struts. Oh well, after recovering from my initial embarrassment I retrieved
the TM and assessed the damage. Only the cabanes were broken.
The Slow Stick, for its size, flew quite well at a slow enough speed to get it around
the gym. We sure could use a larger venue though. It seems to be able to make tight turns without stalling, so I'm going to try it
again this weekend.
One other member, Dr. Richard Wakulat(aka Doc), brought a Wright Flyer type
covered with plastic wrap. After several attempts, the plane still experienced turning problems and was returned to the hangar for
modifications.
Another club member, Bill Rohweder, also attended, but did not bring a plane. I
hope to see him in attendance next Sunday with his TM.
Even with the unplanned landings and failures, we all had a great time and gained a
little more experience flying indoors.
One thing that was learned is that even though a small slow flyer may be able to
handle tight turns in open space, flying indoors presents a different sort of problem, none more so than the psychological effect of
trying to fly in an enclosed space.
We are hoping to locate a larger venue in which to fly a little more comfortably.
All in all it is a great way to break the monotony of long Michigan winters. We have some fun as well as getting club members
together. We might even gain some possible new members.
Until then, keep 'em flying quietly and cleanly,
John Zook
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Upcoming Efliowa
(E-fly Iowa)
Saturday, September 6 &
Sunday, September 7, 2003
Place: Seven Cities Sod Farm - Junction of I-80 and Iowa 130. For
details and map: visit www.rc-dymond.com/efliowa
Last year we had excellent weather and 42 registered pilots that had more than
their share of air time. This year promises to be even bigger and better. For pictures of last years event
fisheye.ws/efliowa
Hope to see you there!!!!!
For further information:
Jon McVay AMA 6004
319-895-6527 Togflier@AOL.com
Folks, please remember to get me your meet notifications as soon as
possible, just like Jon. KM
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Info on Keith Shaw’s Jungmann
From: Keith Shaw Ann Arbor, MI
My restored Jungmann has an Aveox 1412/4Y on 20 CP1700s or 2000NiMH, with
a Modelair-tech H-500 belt drive, 2.6:1 ratio. Initial prop tests show 15/10 @ 5.5K @ 23 amps, so I may go up to a 16/10 or
16/12 after flight tests. A 15.5" prop is scale diameter.
The Bucker Jungmann (pronounced BOO-ker YOUNG-man) was a mid 1930s
German two seat trainer and aerobatic mount. Having flown both the Jungmann and its more famous sibling, the Jungmeister, I
much prefer the Jungmann for aerobatic work. It is smoother and has a more "balanced" control authority on all
three axes, while giving up none of the legendary Bucker snap and knife edge characteristics. As much as I love my Great
Lakes and Stearman, the Jungmann has to get my vote for favorite aerobatic biplane.
My Jungmann is 1/5th scale, 59" span. It was built as a glow plane in 1974,
powered with a SuperTigre .56 with a 12 ounce fuel tank, used a 13/5 prop, and weighed 7 pounds (112 oz.) when fueled. It has
served long and hard, flying countless airshows and just good sport flying. The Monokote had gotten so brittle, it was like
Japanese tissue, so a restoration was started a couple of years ago. The entire airframe was stripped, damaged and fuel-soaked
woodwork was repaired or replaced. The 1/4" plywood firewall was removed, and a new balsa cowl was made to replace the old
heavy fiberglass one, while new built-up tail surfaces replaced the solid sheet originals. The incredible heavy wheels, 8 ounces
for the Pair, were replaced with Dave Brown types. The old Kraft radio with KPS-15s has been replaced by a more modern
Airtronics with smaller, lighter and much more powerful ball-bearing servos.
The final result of all this work has ended up with a flying weight of 7 lb. 4 oz.
(116 oz.). That's right, only a net quarter-pound gain to convert a glow plane to electric, which must be some sort of a record.
I look forward to flying with a very old friend this summer.
Data For Keith Shaw’s Jungmann
If not noted by Keith the Data has been approximated by Ken Myers
Wing Area: 840 sq.in.
Weight: 116 oz. - 7 lb. 4 oz.
Wing Loading: 19.89 oz./sq.ft.
Wing Span: 59 in.
Aveox 1412/4Y
Wt. 10.2 oz.
Kv = 725, Io = 0.065, Rm = 0.065
Model Airtech H-500 ratio: 2.6:1, Wt. 3 oz.
Total Motor + reducer Wt. = 13.2 oz.
20 Sanyo CP-1700 (1.69 oz.) = 32.4 oz.
20 Panasonic 2000 NiMH (1.5 oz.) = 30 oz.
Motor + reducer % of total = 11.4%
CP-1700 cell weight % of total = 27.9%
Total motor + reducer + CP-1700 battery = 39.3%
Note the following mathematical estimations are based on the voltage near
the beginning of the pack discharge and apply to static testing conditions. Amp draw will decrease in the air and as the
pack discharges through the flight, but since most of us tach and test on the ground, these figures can be used for
comparison.
Using 15x10 prop:
Watts in 585 (23.4*1.25*20) Watt/lb. 80.7
Watts to motor 499
Watts to prop 450 Watt/lb. 62
RPM 5,525
Using 16x10
Watts in 687.5 (27.5*1.25*20) Watt/lb. 94.8
Watts to motor 568.8
Watts to prop 506.4 Watt/lb. 69.8
RPM 5,275
Using 16x12
Watts in 762.5 (30.5*1.25*20) Watt/lb. 105.2
Watts to motor 616.5
Watts to prop 543.2 Watt/lb. 74.9
RPM 5,081
Orme’s Rule: 17 - 24 cells
Flight Factor: 2.108
Diameter Factor w/ 15x10: 1.523
Pitch Factor w/ 15x10: 0.667
"Speed" to RPM Factor w/ 15x10: 3.35
If the last four factors are not familiar to you, I will explain them in the future. I just wanted to get them listed now, so that we can refer to them in the future.
For a photo of Keith’s plane, please see the
March Ampeer "February EFO Meeting".
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
New Models From RBC
From: Rob Bulk info@rbckits.com
Hello Friends,
We have updated our pages with some new models:
The Frechdachs, a high wing aileron trainer for Speed 700 and 10 cells.
Design Features: All Formers And Ribs CNC Cut Unique Tab Lock Design
Specifications: Wing Area: 40 dm2 Wing Span; 1750 mm Flight Weight: Starts at 1750 grams Wing
Loading: 45gr dm2 4 Channel Elevator, Ailerons, Rudder & Throttle
Kit Includes: Photo Instructions Full Size Rolled Cad Plans With All Parts Shown Preformed Landing gear Control Horns,
Steering Cables, Waterslide Decals As on the original
Required to Complete: Any inexpensive 4 Channel Radio Light weight Receiver: Light weight Servos: About 9
to 25grams Motor: Speed 700 to Kontronik Fun 600 Electric Speed Controller Battery: 10 x 3300HV Thick and Thin CA glue
The Blohm & Voss P212-03 a Third Reich secret weapon, which did not make it
into production, but it fly's excellently.
Design Features: All Formers And Ribs CNC Cut Unique Tab Lock Design One Piece Design Unique
Motor/Fan compartment closing. Easy Battery Access through Canopy
Specifications: Wing Area: 20 dm2 Wing Span; 1050 mm Flight Weight: Starts at 1200 grams Wing
Loading: 64gr dm2 to 75gr dm2 4 Channel Elevator, Ailerons & Throttle (ailevons needs delta mixer)
Kit Includes: Photo Instructions Full Size Rolled Cad Plans With All Parts Shown Vacuformed Canopy , Intake Duct
Paper Intake Tube , PVC Outlet Tube Control Horns , Steering Cables Now Included! Waterslide Decals As On The
Model
Required to Complete: 3 Channel Radio with delta mixer Light weight Receiver: Light weight Servos: About 9
grams Motor: Kontronik Fun 400-36 or Fun 400-28 Electric Speed Controller smile 40-6-12 Wemotec Mini Fan 480 Battery:
10 x 1250SCR or 12 x CP1300 Thick and Thin CA glue Bungee Launch req. The B & V needs a 8mm x 7,5mtr bungee with 8
kg of pulling power.
New models to expect soon: the Yak-23 and the Cessna Birddog.
Have a look and enjoy.
Rob Bulk
RBCkits WWW.RBCKITS.COM
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
New Product Releases from Hobbico
From: Heather Rose HROSE@hobbico.com
Presented for informational purposes only.
The "ready-when-you-are" electric.
Flight-ready in just a few hours!
Spanning less than 50", the Lightnin' Bug is small enough to fit fully assembled
in a vehicle for easy, spontaneous flying.
- Comes 90% pre-assembled, with an all-wood, jig-built airframe that's expertly covered in premium iron-on covering.
- A Speed 400 motor with gear reduction unit and prop is included.
- Slow, relaxing flight makes the Lightnin' Bug ideal for novice and experienced pilots alike.
- Ideal for flying at a school yard or sports field!
Wingspan: 49.5 in (1257mm)
Length: 30.5 in (775mm)
Approx. Weight: 20-25 oz (567-709g)
Includes: Speed 400 motor, gear reduction unit, prop
Requires: 2-channel radio, electronic speed control, battery
GBGA1072 Lightnin' Bug Park Flyer ARF Yellow
GBGA1073 Lightnin' Bug Park Flyer ARF Red
Retail $199.99
Street 129.99
DUE IN STOCK LATE MARCH
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Lil’ Horten
From: Phil Pham xpham@earthlink.net
Thanks for your help Ken.... Got the Horten article.... Here is a construction picture
I posted on www.ezonemag.com-dunno if I'm eligible anymore for their EDF contest
since I 'spilled the beans' :). Btw, I'll be the smallest Horten Ho 9 scale model (if it flies) EDF anyways, that I know of for kp-44
fans.
I'll send you more as it progresses if you're interested!
Phil Pham - Huntington Beach, CA
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Nieuport 17
My friend, Pete Waters of Northville, MI, just finished up this Nieuport. There is no
trick photography or perspective change. No it’s not electric, but it is "cool", and I just wanted to share it with all of
you.
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Some of John Lewis’s Planes
from: Howard Hilton hilton@moment.net
John was a very special guest at the February EFO meeting,
having driven up from Kansas City. We were thrilled to have him and his wife with us. He
mailed some photos and information on his planes to share with us. He thanked us for a very
enjoyable evening and then shared the following.
"By the way, I do agree with you about learning to fly
electric. I personally found the Push-E Cat to have been excellent for me to get "stick
time" and get the correct flight pattern around the landing field fixed in my mind. Also,
the Amptique was wonderful, from the point of view that it could fly so slowly."
John’s Push-E Cat uses Graupner Speed 400 with 8 1600 mAh
NiMH cells. John has hours of flying this plane teaching himself to fly the correct pattern.
It was a great help to him in his early learning days.
John’s Amptique, shown below, is perhaps his favorite plane.
It uses an Astro Flight brushless 020G with a 13x8 folder. He uses a 7 cell 2200 mAh NiMH
battery most of the time in this plane. It gives 6 climbs to almost out of site.
John’s fleet includes; 2 Sig LT-25s (one with AF15G & one with MaxCim
brushless), GP .40 size J-3 Cub w/MaxCim, Amptique w/AF020G, Cutie w/Phasor 15/3, Sig Rascal w/Speed 400, Sig 4-Star
40 w/MaxCim, PushE-Cat w/Speed 400, Sig Somethin’ Extra w/Hacker B50 11XL and 2M Lil Bird w/Hacker B20 15L.
His first small plane was the 2M Lil Bird. He found that the suggested motor “was useless.”
The Hacker B20 15 geared 4.4:1 and using an 11x8 prop made this flyable.
The Great Planes 1/5-scale Cub is his latest project. It is powered by a MaxCim
N32=13Y with a new planetary gearbox fitted by Tom Cimato. For flight he uses 20 cells and a 16x10 prop. The one shown on
the plane if for show.
Below is John’s second Sig 4-Star 40. Power is a MaxCim N30-13Y geared
3.75:1. The motor turns a 16x10 prop with the power supplied by 20 3000 mAh NiMH cells.
The LT-25 on the left was built per my recommendation on the EFO Web site:
Astro Flight cobalt 15 motor with the standard Astro Flight geardrive, but with the 11-tooth pinion installed to change
the gear ratio to 2.82:1 from the standard 2.38:1 turning a 12x8 wood prop with 14 cells. It uses a controller that was
especially designed for John by Castle Creations. Patrick only lives about 6 miles from John in Kansas City.
The one on the right uses a MaxCim 32-13Y geared 3.75:1. It turns an APC
prop with 20 cells. A bit more exciting than the trainer version!
The Sig Somethin’ Extra is powered by a Hacker B50 11XL geared 5.2:1 with an
18x12 Thin Electric APC prop. It uses 20 3000 mAh cells and is equipped with an "Ultimate" BEC. It weighs
112 oz. (7 lb.) and pulls approximately 45 amps static.
Data For John Lewis’s Somethin’ Extra
If not noted by John the Data has been approximated by Ken Myers
Wing Area: 614 sq.in. (mfg.)
Weight: 112 oz. - 7 lb.
Wing Loading: 26.27 oz./sq.ft.
Wing Span: 51.5 in. (mfg.)
Hacker B50 11XL
Wt. 11.7 oz.
Kv = 1435, Io = 1.12, Rm = 0.0152
5.2:1 reducer: Wt. 2 oz.
Total Motor + reducer Wt. = 13.7 oz.
20 3000 NiMH (2.08 oz.) = 41.6 oz.
Motor + reducer % of total = 12.2%
Cell weight % of total = 37.1%
Total motor + reducer + CP-1700 battery = 49.4%
Note the following mathematical estimations are based on the voltage near the beginning of the pack discharge and apply to static testing conditions. Amp draw will decrease in the air and as the pack discharges through the flight, but since most of us tach and test on the ground, these figures can be used for comparison.
Using 18x12 prop:
Watts in 1092.5 (43.7*1.25*20) Watt/lb. 156
Watts to motor 792.68
Watts to prop 744.08 Watt/lb. 106.3
RPM 4,823
Orme’s Rule: 12 - 18 cells
Ken’s Modified Orme’s Rule: 12 - 21 cells
Flight Factor: 3.090
Diameter Factor w/ 18x12: 2.270
Pitch Factor w/ 18x12: 0.67
"Speed" to RPM Factor w/ 18x12: 3.05
For another photo of John’s plane, please see the
March Ampeer "February EFO Meeting".
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Advice On Electric Conversions
From: Michael J. Singleton msingle@sanctum.com
I'm looking for general info on converting balsa models that were designed for glow
power, to electric. I've seen a few articles on converting specific kits, but I'm really looking for a set of "general
guidelines" that could be applied to the majority of balsa kits designed for glow engines.
It seems there are a huge number of balsa kits for the glow engine people. I'd like
to be able to work with some of them, as they seem to have an almost endless supply of my favorite types, WW I and WW II
war birds, as well as the current crop of military aircraft.
To be clear, I'm not talking about ARF's or RTF's, more along the lines of a box of
parts and a set of plans. I enjoy building "from the ground, up."
If you have any advice on the subject of electric conversion in your database, I'd
love to hear it! Or, if you know of an on-line source, that would be great, too. I do post on the E-Zone forum from time to time,
but I haven't found what I'm looking for there.
Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
First, download the four parts to Keith Shaw’s Talk to the EMFSO.
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/shaw1.pdf
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/shaw2.pdf
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/shaw3.pdf
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/shaw4.pdf
Next, read Keith’s articles on Scale, Twins and Charging Into Electric Flight.
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/scale.pdf
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/twins.pdf
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/chrg2ef.pdf
There is also an article by Tom Hunt on converting glow kits to electric power.
http://members.aol.com/kmyersefo/convert.pdf
Today, I would plan on going brushless in most decent size Warbirds and
bipes converted from glow kits. In general, Top Flight kits are not the easiest to convert, as they tend to have a lot of
built in weight that is not easy to remove unless you have a bit of experience. If you, or anyone else, would like some
recommendations for specific conversions, please feel free to email me. I’ll be more than happy to send along my
recommendations.
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Request for Slide in Power Unit in March Ampeer
From: Greg Harvey gjharvey@mindspring.com
Armand,
I saw your request of "I have several 40" planes and would like to use
the same Promax 400 Motor and Esc. It MUST be quickly removable and quickly installed from a plane to another. Like a
cartridge if you want."
I think what you are looking for one of our members has been doing for quite some
time. He has posted an article on our clubs web site, www.marcee.org, under articles
you'll find one titled, "SLIDE IN POWER UNIT FOR ELECTRIC POWERED PLANES". Hope this is what you
were looking for.
Greg Harvey
MARCEE webmaster
The direct URL for those interested in this article by Don Garnlund is:
http://www.marcee.org/Articles/SlidePowerUnit.html KM
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NIRAC
(NATIONAL INDOOR REMOTE-CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT COUNCIL)
COMPETITION NOTICE
FIRST ANNUAL INDOOR R/C CHAMPIONSHIP
DATES: Saturday May 31, 2003
And Sunday, June 1, 2003
Location: Oakland Yard, Waterford, Michigan
(approx. 100 miles north of Toledo, northwest of Detroit and just east of the Pontiac
International Airport)
Facility Size: 240 X 300 feet, with an 82 feet ceiling
Contest Director: Dave Robelen @ aplusfarm@hovac.com
Events: 6 events planned, with trophies to third place
An overall high point Championship Award
Individual Event rules and a registration form can be found on the NIRAC website:
www.nirac.org
Hobby Vendors will be selling on-site
Information on local lodging and a Saturday night banquet can be
obtained from John Worth @ johnworth@cox.net
General information available from NIRAC President
Bob Wilder @ rjwmaw5@attbi.com
And NIRAC Vice President
Bob Aberle @ baberle@optonline.net
Pre-Registration is recommended!
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
The March EFO Meeting
The meeting started off with a little general discussion about Li-Po cells, because
Ken had posted a question about using them in sport power applications on the eflight list. He was just fishing to see what he
might learn. It became "very interesting" when the responses poured in. Norm brought up some very interesting
points, and again shared his expertise on using them in low-power applications. Watch for Norm’s article on them in next
month's Ampeer.
Information on the technique that Richard Utkan used for his "hollow"
foam wing, which he showed last month, is on the Web at: www.foamfly.com. This
month he shared his version of a 250 sq.in. self-design that he plans on using a MPI Cobalt 14T in. MPI motors can be found at
www.maxxprod.com. Richard’s motor draws 17 amps swinging a 7x3 prop on 7
cells.
Richard Utkan with his own designed sport plane.
David with his stock Frog.
David Stacer shared his Frogs with us. The first one was built according to the
plans he ordered at the foamfly site mentioned above. The second one he’s building has some novel approaches to it. For
example, the body is made from one piece of fanfold foam so that there is only one seam line. Very clever! Flying these
inexpensive planes in the dome has given this budding pilot a lot of confidence.
The routing at the seams and vee cuts for folding can be seen in this
photo.
James with his modified T-52.
Jim Maughan shared his modified T-52. Information on the stock T-15 can be
found at: www.jkaerotech.com/T52.htm. Jim’s uses the stock body and
tail, but has a non-dihedral wing with ailerons that he picked up at a swap shop. It weighs 28.5 ounces and uses an 8-cell NiMH
pack. The motor is a 380 (ie. Speed 400) with a 1.8:1 reducer. He reports that it flies quite well.
Steve Elwell shared information on his Mini SpeedWing and lot of his
"small" gear, including a Berg receiver. The Speed Wing, a small flying wing, information can be found at
www.speedwing.net on the Web.
Next EFO Meeting
The next EFO meeting will be on Sunday, April 27. It will be a "flying"
meeting, so bring your planes. The meeting will be held at the Midwest R/C Society flying field on 5 Mi. Road in Northville
Township. It will start at about 10 o’clock. You MUST have your current, 2003, AMA membership card with you to fly!!! Ken
will be checking cards. Absolutely NO ONE will fly without their current AMA card. See you then.
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Motor Mounts and Removable Tails
From Reuben Schneider, Phoenix, AZ
Reuben sent along the following:
Pictured are the motor mounts I have used for years to mount different motors. I
use the smaller size for Speed 400 motors. The larger is for the Speed 500/600 motors. I even have a Speed 700 on one. They
can be made any size. I use .032" aluminum. The oval air holes are drilled with a 3/16" drill. They are spaced
evenly apart and the wall between is removed with a needle file.
By turning the adapter 90 degrees, you can use it for more than one size. I use
1/8" Lite Ply for the attaching bulkhead with an adequate hole for the motor.
This also fits between the motor and gearbox if used, and facilitates the mounting
of the firewall.
Here is a copy of my system to make tail surfaces removable for easy transport.
I have, through the years, accumulated wings and tails, which I fit onto my generic
fuselages for ugly, but fun, airplanes. Everything flies! The Flight of the Phoenix, revisited.
Above is an easily constructed, removable, tail section for ease of transportation of
some models. The plywood (aircraft grade birch) can be from 1/16" and up, relative to the size of the model.
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
Super Universal Mounting System
 
Dave Grife sent me an email to alert us to this unique mounting system. It is
produced by one of Dave’s Coldwater, MI club members. He also wanted me to remind you about the Coldwater club’s annual
Keith Shaw’s Birthday Electric Fly-in. It will be held on June 6, 7 and 8. More details will follow.
Here’s some information on the SUM. All the information and photos were
gathered from the producer’s Web site at: www.cambriatool.com
Cambria Tool & Machine, Inc.
121 West Mechanic Street
Hillsdale, Michigan 49242
The mounts are available from:
Esprit Model
1114 Lynbrook St.
NW Palm Bay FL, 32907
Phone: 1.321.729.4287 Hours: Monday - Friday 10 AM to 7 PM Saturday 9 AM to 5 PM
E-mail: sales@espritmodel.com
www.espritmodel.com
New Creations R/C
P.O. Box 496
Willis, TX 77378
Phone: 1.936.856.4630 Hours: Monday - Friday 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM Saturday 8:00 AM to 12:00 PM
E-mail: sales@newcreations-rc.com
www.newcreations-rc.com
The philosophy is to "sell only the parts that the modeler needs, instead of an
entire package. So, if you already own a "SUM" mount, and wish to change to a different motor, you only have to
buy the front plate that will fit your new motor."
"All components are machined from 6061-T6 Aluminum. Nothing cast. All
of the screws for the mount have 6-32 threads."
I strongly urge you to visit the Cambria Tool Web site to learn more about the
SUM.
Return to "What's In This Issue?"
To Reach Ken Myers, you can land mail to the address at the top of the page. My E-mail
address is:
KMyersEFO@aol.com
EFO WEBsite: http://members.aol.com/KMyersEFO/
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