Flying High With Electric Power! The Ampeer ON-LINE! July 1997 The Club Newsletter of the Electric Flyers Only, Inc AMA Charter 2354 Walled Lake, MI, USA Editor: Ken Myers Fly the Future - Fly Electric!

President:	Vice-President:	Secretary/Treasurer:	Board of Directors:	Board of Directors:
Ken Myers	Richard Utkan	Debbie McNeely	Keith Clark	Jeff Hauser
1911 Bradshaw Ct.	240 Cabinet	4733 Crows Nest Ct.	2140 E. Highland Rd.	18200 Rosetta
Walled Lake, MI 48390	Milford, MI 48381	Brighton, MI 48116	Howell, MI 48843	Eastpointe, MI 48021
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Mailed Ampeer subscriptions are $10 a year U.S. & Canada and $17 a year world wide. FREE on-line!		The Next Meeting: Date: Thursday, July 3, 1997 7:30 or ASAP - Rushton Road Flying Field, South Lyon, MI, between 8 & 9 Mile Roads

What's In This Issue?
Prop Info	A Sr. Kadet Rating	News from New Zealand	Thanks Ben!
April EFO Meeting	Toledo '97	In praise of MaxCim	A Tale of Two Planes - the Sequel
Rev-up Props	Mid-America Flies info	Upcoming Events	The Next Meeting
Help With Canard Info

Prop(er) Selection
from Carlo Ciarniello - e-mail at: C.Ciarniello@mbltd.com

Ken,
     The following is some experience I've had with Electric powered aircraft:
     I have been flying RC for over 10 years. A number of years ago I acquired an Astro Cobalt 05 direct drive motor and scratch built an "Ugly Stick" type aircraft to try out the system. Although I cannot remember the specs on this plane the flight performance was excellent with all the basic maneuvers easily performed. Alas, without a spinner or landing gear this plane suffered the bent shaft syndrome on each flight!
     This past Christmas a new Cobalt 15G and an Astro 111 charger were acquired and the electric bug hit again.
     This time I built scale and constructed the Electric PT-19 detailed in RCM a number of years ago. Weight was 75 oz. with two 6-cell car type batteries (1200 mAh, brand?). The motor was propped with a Zinger 12-6 turning 6400 rpm and performance was good. Loops and clean rolls from level flight with about 5 minutes of flight using a "RCM/CANO" speed controller. On the fourth flight I changed the prop to an APC 11-7, big mistake, as the flight was terminated with the classic take-off, stall, cartwheel landing. This experience dictated some serious investigation into the best prop for this combination.
     (For some other details on this type of situation, see "Choosing the Right Prop", Ampeer, Feb. '97 km)
     The following are the results of my experiments with 4 props:

Dear Carlo,
     Thank you very much for all of your info on your props and the AF15G. This once again confirms what was stated in "Choosing the Right Prop", Ampeer, Feb. '97.
     According to some quick calculations I did with ElectriCalc, when you were using the APC 11x7 on your PT-19, you were getting less than 45 watts of input power per pound. It has been recommended that 50 watts of input power is the minimum to even consider. I personally have changed this to 50 watts of output power per pound for good, fun sport flying. Unfortunately, you confirmed this the hard way! Hopefully we will all learn from your experience! Thanks for sharing with us.

I would like to add an entry..you already have a Kadet Senior but its over weight at 8.5lbs, my Kadets weigh from 6.5lbs. to 7lbs..using either 18 Panasonic 1700 or 20 Sanyo 1700SCRC. They are very responsive and have a duration of 15-23 minutes with the Sanyo cells. I give them a (5) ***** rating since they are the best planes I have ever flown, including glow powered. Bob Benton and I have built and flown about 9 of these things. Build it completely stock, don't beef up, ditch the nose landing gear and use a light weight covering such as Micafilm or transparent Monokote..never use one of the heavy fabrics since they can give you a 20oz penalty in weight. Kadets are large and they use lots of covering material.      In this photo of one of Herm's Sr. Kadets note the AF40G and the placement of the battery packs.

     I’ve just been reading the latest Ampeer and thought I would let you know that there are some modellers here in New Zealand who regularly read it. I fly electric but mostly gas models still (electric performance systems are still rather costly). There are at least 2 in the club who have gone completely electric and a few others who are heading that way. Anyway, Ampeer is a great mag.
     I am also writng a home page for my son's primary school (he is in the equivalent of about grade 2) and I've used Dublin http://members.aol.com/DublinEL/ to show the school a good example of the things you can do with a home page. I'll let you know as soon as it is on line, there would be good opportunities for your kids to talk to ours. New Zealand primary schools are ages 5 to approximately 11 - 12.
cheers - JOHN
     (Check out John’s model page. A visit to other countries is always fun. There are several e-fliers I’m in contact with down there. Hope they’re having a good "winter" now, and you folks in Australia too! km)

     It seems that there are many great reasons for pursuing the hobby of electrically powered radio control aircraft, but for me, the most important is the people. The newsletter editors and columnists put out fresh infomation month after month, year after year and on the field every day! Every last one of them deserves our special thanks. All e-fliers are a very special breed! Thanks to all of you for making all of us what we are. And now on with some more words of praise for Ben from Wade. km

     I just read the April '97 Ampeer issue and found the article from Ben Almojuela very interesting. You see I have worked with Ben at Boeing off-and-on for a few years (small world, huh?). We share some of the same interests, have traveled together, co-hosted social gatherings and talked RC quite a bit. Ben urged me to give electrics a try as my RC roots are in gas sport/aerobatic planes and thermal sailplanes, invited me to an electric fly-in (which I attended and was impressed) and invited me to come fly with him at his home on Whidbey Island (with his own 'quiet' airfield right behind his home). In short, he has 'sparked' my interest in electrics and continued to keep the spark alive. Thanks to Ben, I have a real interest in flying quietly. I am flying my first electric plane (a PuddleMaster) and finishing my second (an electric Lazy Bee).
     All that and I never knew that Ben was the editor of the Charge Ahead newsletter or president of the PSEMF! Ben's modesty is something many of us could learn from. I hope you get the pleasure of meeting Ben some day. I think you'll enjoy it. You can be sure I'll send him a note on Monday when I get into work!
     One last thing. I have seen mention of a plane called the PuddleBlaster. It seems to be a twin version of the Ace PuddleMaster. I like my PuddleMaster and a twin version seems like fun. A couple of people have rated it quite highly in the plane ratings. Do you have any information on this plane? (Sorry, can anyone help Wade? km) Was it in a magazine as a construction/conversion article? Any idea of the magazine name and issue?
Thanks a bunch - Wade Meyer

Lots of airplane talk at the April meeting. Of course the Toledo show followed the meeting, the next day, so there was also a good deal of discussion on who was going and when.      Bob Blau brought in his twin FAI 05 powered Pucara built from the Kress Jets’ kit. The triple bladed props are just for show. This is a really light plane and should fly well.      John Geyer had his AF 15 direct drive GP ElectroStreak. This is the second one he has built. The first one was flown stock, but this one uses, what has become the "typical" installation of the AF15 on direct drive. He has also made up a really nice "field pack" consisting of a gel-cell battery and his SR Smart Charger. He demonstrated many of the features of the Smart Charger. He’s seen holding his Streak and charger.      Ken Myers showed off and discussed his yet unnamed design. It is a low-wing sport model of approximately 440 sq.in. It has a wing span of 55 inches and fuselage length of 37 inches. The wing uses D-tube construction. Its finished weight should be between 53 and 55 ounces. It uses a NACA 2412 airfoil and has the horizontal stab and elevator lifted from the Blitz, featured in the June 1990 Model Aviation. The rest of the plane is a fresh design.      As seen in this photo, it weighs 43.8 oz. with the motor/belt-drive and a nine-cell 1700SCRC battery pack. Radio installation remains to be completed.      Ken has CADed the plans and written up the construction. More details should be available soon.

     After having had a near brush with a major model mishap, Bob Jacquot, WESS's own resident member who is at home in Germany sends in the following report DW:

     "Some time ago I mentioned that I was planning on replacing the Astro 25G in the Schneider 60E with a brushless motor. In Bernard Cnwley's article in the August issue of MAN he noted that they are quite efficient at partial throttle settings, give longer flight times, and have much more power, not to mention being practically maintenance-free. That intrigued me.
     Without knowing exactly where to start, I thought I would pose a set of questions to the two major manufacturers of these types of motors concerning their recommendations for two of my planes, the Schneider and the Fleet.
     Tom Cimato, of MaxCim, replied immediately with the detailed output of a computer analysis program, E-Calc, which contained all the comparative performance characteristics of their motors and the Astros I have been using. There was no response to my query from Brand X perhaps they don't need the business!
     (I am sure they do. I'm not sure what happened, and why they didn't respond. I've found them to be extremely responsive to modeler's needs and requests. They also have a virtual motor tester on their site where you can try out their motors with various cell counts, props and gear ratios. km)
     A lengthy e-mail correspondence with Tom Cimato followed where he showed remarkable patience with the many questions that I had. This was an indication to me that he was commited to servicing his customers. Subsequently, I ordered the Max 15-13Y motor with the 2.5:1 gearbox and the 35-21 controller for 7-21 cells with BEC, the same equipment that the E-Calc program suggested. Within a few days, a neat package showed up in my mailbox and upon opening it, I was struck by how, with obvious TLC, this beautifully machined motor, controller and motor mount were so carefully nested in fitted foam rubber.
     Since the Astro 25G had been previously mounted in the Schneider, I set about to remove it, and to fabricate a new firewall for the Max 15. A jig that gave me the location of the prop boss and shaft made finding the exact location for the motor mount a snap. In short, the entire installation was a piece of cake.
     To test the system on my bench with my setup was easy. It performed just like downtown. However, upon installation in the airplane, my range checks were not what I thought they should be. All I had done was to substitute the brushless motor for the brush type. I contacted Mr. Cimato about this and he immediately jumped on the problem, identifying a possible problem related to our European frequencies while explaining that range checks on 72 MHz in the US had yielded better range check results than those of an analog system as confirmed by Bernard Cawley's article. Eventually, we determined that my Graupner receiver had an intermittent response to noise and that by adding an opto-coupler (furnished by MaxCim) to isolate the controller from the receiver, the result was a large range boost. A replacement receiver solved the problem entirely.
     The controller itself is micro-processor based and, as such, needs no adjustment for idle or top end as does an analog controller. The transmitter is switched on first with the throttle in "off," and the trim lever centered; then the receiver and controller are switched on. The microprocessor reads the position of the throttle and trim and sets itself accordingly. Back trim is braking action. It works!
     Flight tests: I ordered another motor and controller to put in the Fleet and installed it in January. Because of the horrible weather we were having here, I wasn't able to make any flight tests until late in February.
     The day was cold and windy, but I wanted to see how these motors performed. I made preliminary range tests with excellent results and then proceeded to fly both the Schneider and the Fleet. Without making definitive performance tests (it was too cold), I noted remarkably greater power with these motors and I was getting at least a 25% increase in flight time from the batteries.
     The bottom line is that I am quite pleased with this motor and it's performance and very much impressed with Tom Cimato's dedication to serving his customers. I can't remember EVER having received this type of personal help from any firm with which I've done business in the past.
     As you might suspect, I recommend this motor highly. I cannot make a comparison with Brand X because my initial contact as a potential customer was overlooked or ignored. The Max 15 is a great product and I'm perfectly satisfied with it."
     (Thanks, Bob. As usual, your correspondence helps to define the purpose of this newsletter.-DW)

     (Thanks Bob and Doug. I want it clearly understood that this letter was published IN PRAISE of Mr. Cimato. As I said earlier in my note, I have always found Brand-X extremely responsive to modellers. It is my personal belief that this was an isolated case, so please be sure to contact all of the folks you wish to get info from, at least a couple of times. If you use e-mail and the system drops a packet somewhere, well, your message is gone. But, in praise of Mr. Cimato - Way to go Tom! :-) km)

     In my previous article, "A Tale of Two Models", I discussed a pair of Great Planes Sportster models, .20 size. One, excellently made by John Hood, was successful, with a few problems. The other plane, made by the author, crashed on the first flight due to over weight, under prop. and lack of pilot skill.
     John's 20 is still around. He finds that it flies much better with a pack of 1000 mAh cells than a pack of 1400 mAh cells. This adds credibility to the theory that an Astro 25 and 16 cells is on the margin of too much weight for the 20 size Sportster to carry well. It does fly pretty fast, and still lands extremely fast. I believe that this model would fly very well with a geared Astro 15 and 12 to 14 (1000 mAh) cells.
     I decided that the best alternative to fly the Astro 25 Geared motor I had was to go up one size in planes. I purchased a Great Planes 40 sized Super Sportster kit and built it per plans. I even used a gas motor mount for the motor. No changes were really required to convert it other than motor/battery ventilation and velcro to attach the motor battery.
     In an effort to reduce weight significantly, I cut out a lot of wood from the tail feathers and a bit from the fuselage. I also reduced the shear web weight by putting them between the spars instead of gluing them to the trailing edge as directed by the plans. (That is where they belong anyway! km) I used plastic Nyrods instead of the steel ones supplied and shortened them by moving the servos way back in the fuselage. I saved all the wood I cut out in a paper lunch bag and weighed it up when the plane was complete. Counting the weight of the bag 1 only saved 2.6 ounces. This was minuscule compared to the 6 lb. 2 oz. weight of the finished product, and greatly weakened the assemblies effected. I feel a better place to save weight would be to hand select the wood for the wing spars and the sheeting for the "D" box on the leading edge. I added a generous air scoop on the nose and exhausted the air through a hole in the canopy covered by a reversed scoop. I located the receiver battery and two servos aft of the wing two bulkheads to aid in balancing the plane. The receiver was one station aft of the wing. The motor battery pack was mounted over the wing just forward of the aileron servo. No additional weight was required to balance the plane fore and aft. (And NONE should ever be added to an electric model. With that Ni-Cad ballast, it can be moved to balance any model. km)
     The finished plane, ready to fly with an Astro 25 geared moron 16 cell pack of 1700 mAh Sanyo batteries and three full sized servos weighs 6 lb. 2 oz. That's just 2 oz. over the max. weight called for in the kit. The plane flies well, does not exhibit the problems experienced with the 20 sized version and has survived 6 flights to date. In the hands of Steve Belknap or Steve Nue it flies excellently. When I fly it I still have bit of a learning curve to overcome, but I trust the plane to fly well if I do my part. I consider this trust an extremely important characteristic in any plane. I 0y
     Bob Boucher's comments on propellers used on the first model were right on target. Using an 11X9 Master Airscrew Electric prop, the motor turns 7,500 rpm for a top speed of 64 miles per hour (calculated). The plane climbs at a satisfactory rate and will zoom around doing aerobatics for 4 minutes, longer if I just cruise. Wring loading (550 sq inches/95 oz) is a hefty 25.7 oz., so the plane still must be flown fairly fast and landed a little faster than normal. It has bent the landing gear back about 1 inch on two occasions due to rapid landings and rutted runways. This may have been aggravated by the fact that I extended the landing gear 1 inch to provide ground clearance for the prop.
     For those who like to play with specs., the plane produces 109.7 watts per pound of input power. That is, (19.2 volts x 35 amps = 672 watts total)/ 98 ounces total weight. Per Bob Beijamin's comments, a plane requires around 50 watts per pound of input power to take off and fly, and about 60 watts per pound to perform basic aerobatics and 70 watts for advanced aerobatics. These figures give an idea of the planes performance potential.
     From research on the internet I have found several others who have built the same plane and equipped it with an Astro 40 direct drive and 18 to 20 SCRC cells. They report similar results and flight times.
     In closing I will say this plane is exciting to fly, and a successful, easy electric conversion to build, but definitely not a beginner's plane. Pilots used to flying low and mid wing planes will enjoy it.

     In a conversation with Chris Machin, Progress Company, Rev-up props are available directly from him at (913) 776-5754 or you can write to:
Progress Company
P.O. Box 1306
Manhattan, KS 66505-1306
     I priced the 10x6 ($2.79) & the 10x6W ($2.89), plus shipping.

NOTE: Map was rotated to fit on page. North is to right as you view. To locate the Midwest R/C Society flying field, site of the 1997 Mid-America Electric Flies, look on the far left side of the map (top as viewed here), where X marks the spot near Five Mile Road and Napier. The field entrance is off of Five Mile Road. M-14 can be entered and exited via Beck Road.

August 3, RESCHEDULED - Capital Area Soaring Associations Annual Summer Sizzler Electric Fun Fly, Rockville MD --- For more information contact Roy Smith: 301-279-2966 or email at mailto:SuzGoose@AOL.com
We have rescheduled the annual CASA electric fun fly we held on April 13, It was a wash-out or rather a wind-out. We had a very nice turn out with folks from several different states, but the wind was 20+ and very gusty.
Thanks, Charles French
Aug. 2 - 5 - AMA Headquarters, Muncie, IN Doug Ward, R.D. #1, Box 189. Irwin, PA 15642 (412) 446-5891or email Doug at DWard79207@aol.com
Aug. 16 NOTE: ORIGINAL POST OF AUG. 17 WAS WRONG Fourth Annual SEFLI Mountain Fly-Inn, in East Dover, VT. Electric fun fly and Class A/B sailplane, Class A old-timer, 1/2a Sailplane and 1/2a texaco Old timer.. Hand lauched models only as there is no prepared runway (hay field). Contact Tom Hunt 516-981-0372 --- P.O. Box 1467, Lake Grove, N.Y. 11755-0867 or by E-mailing Tom Hunt at THunt95147@aol.com
Aug. 16/17 Halton Hills, George Ball Memorial Electric Fun Fly, Ont. Geoff Miller (905) 454-5198
September 20 & 21 Queen City Airport, Allentown, PA: KRC - setup on the 19th. For more info e-mail Anthony Assetto at 102723.2566@compuserve.com
October 17, 18 & 19 Gulf States Electric Fly-In hosted by the Ozone R/C Club --- for more info: Paul Perret, 1780 Prytania Street, New Orleans, LA 70130 (504) 524-3442 or email at PaulCPerret@worldnet.att.net or Ben Mathews, 101 Mulberry Drive Metairie, LA 70005 (504) 833-5589 or email at Benmat@worldnet.att.net

Next Meeting: Thursday, July 3, 1997, 7:30 or ASAP - Rushton Road Flying Field, South Lyon, MI, between 8 & 9 Mile Roads

To Reach Ken Myers, you can land mail to the address at the top of the page. My E-mail address is: 102575.3410@compuserve.com EFO WEBsite: http://members.aol.com/KMyersEFO/

Ciao Ken,
     My name is Filippo, I'm writing from Milano, Italy. The question is: do you know where to find plans for electric canards and for electric tailless?
     I've already tried to fly a canard, designed by AutoCad ( something like this ... ), and it flew well, but finally that bird found a rock, and ...
     I have some experience with standard airplanes (12 built, 3 of which designed by me ), so I'm not afraid in construction job.
     I thank you very much in advance
Regards,
Filippo

     Can anyone help? km