Flying High With Electric Power! The Ampeer ON-LINE! June 1997 The Club Newsletter of the Electric Flyers Only, Inc AMA Charter 2354 Walled Lake, MI, USA Editor: Ken Myers Fly the Future - Fly Electric!

President:	Vice-President:	Secretary/Treasurer:	Board of Directors:	Board of Directors:
Ken Myers	Richard Utkan	Debbie McNeely	Keith Clark	Jeff Hauser
1911 Bradshaw Ct.	240 Cabinet	4733 Crows Nest Ct.	2140 E. Highland Rd.	18200 Rosetta
Walled Lake, MI 48390	Milford, MI 48381	Brighton, MI 48116	Howell, MI 48843	Eastpointe, MI 48021
(810) 669-8124	(810) 685-1705	(810) 220-2297	(517) 546-2462	(810) 772-2499
Mailed Ampeer subscriptions are $10 a year U.S. & Canada and $17 a year world wide. FREE on-line!		The Next Meeting: Date: Thursday, June 5, 1997 7:30 or ASAP - Rushton Road Flying Field, South Lyon, MI, between 8 & 9 Mile Roads

What's In This Issue?
Product Info	Multimeter Tach	Helicopter Challenge Met!	Wants Plans
More on Take Along Plane	Upcoming DEAF Meet Info	On Finding "BAD" Cells Info	Interesting Info from Dave Segal
A Mirage In Maine	Important Note: EFO Flying MEETING	Mid-America Flies info	Upcoming Events

Product News
by Bernard Cawley via Charge Ahead!

MODELAIR-TECH
P.O. BOX 1467, Lake Grove, NY 11755-0898, Phone & FAX (516) 981-0372, E-mail: THunt95147@aol.com

Modelair-Tech continues to introduce new products. Some that come immediately to mind are the MGB-50 motor/gearbox combo, and plans for Tom Hunt's NATS winning pylon racer (which, amazingly, is part of the "stick series" of models).
The MGB-50 is a motor/gearbox combo in the growing "speed 400" class. Here's how MAT describes it: "the MGB-50 is made up of the M-50 (a "400" sized) DC electric motor and GM-50, 2.14:1 gearbox. The M-50 motor is rated at 50 watts of output, and can be run on 7-10 cells. The gearbox is of conventional spur and pinion design and both gears are made of steel. The gearbox case and shaft support is of tough, injection molded nylon. The combo is capable of flying 200-300 sq.in. sport models, 288-400 sq.in. powered sailplane or old timer models, and 350-600 sq.in. multi-motored models. The high voltage nature of the M-50 motor makes this a very good motor for small model endurance flights, or where larger more efficient propellers are desired. The matching GB-50 gearbox, is smooth running and able to absorb more power than delivered by the M-50 motor. Gearbox output shafts (1/8" steel) are simply set screwed into place, allowing easy replacement in the event of damage in a crash. The gearbox can be moved to another "400" type motor after the useful life of the M-50 has been reached. Price is a very reasonable $24.95, direct from Modelair-Tech.
The BareBones is a Speed 400 pylon racer addition to the stick series of models. Tom Hunt used a prototype, and some good flying, to win the informal Speed 400 pylon event at this year's NATS. Price for BareBones plans is $8, I believe. Announced (on Ken Myers' EFO web site and the E-Zone) is the small belt drive from Modelair-Tech - the H-100. As the name implies this is a 100W-capable unit for -what else? - Speed 400 size motors. I imagine anything with a diameter near the S400 will work. This would include the AP-29/Speed 480 types, as well as the new Astro Brushless 020. From the drawing on the web page it looks to be a worthy successor to the old Astro Flight 020/035 belt drives (who else even remembers those?) and fits right in with the ongoing explosion of small electrics. Features mentioned include a wide variety of ratios from 3:1 up to 4.8:1, a dual ball bearing supported output shaft and flats on the side of the housing for beam mounting. It looks much more compact than the old Astro 020/035 belt drive, too - a good thing. For some reason this one has me excited about the possibilities.....

Our local purveyor of things electric, Model Electronics, seems to have a proliferation of gearboxes soon to be available. In a phone conversation with Pete Peterson, I learned of a single motor variation of their dual motor box which will allow ratios of up to 10:1! Sixteen inch props, anyone? Also, he has test flown a modified rear plate for the SuperBox which will allow it to be used with the AP-29 and Speed 400 type motors (is there a trend here?). His test case was a foam FW-190 R/C combat plane, which was running an AP-29 on 6:1, at 16A on 9 cells, swinging a 13 inch prop, and performing very well indeed. Pete also has in stock new Delrin pin-drive 40 and 50 tooth spur gears (made like the current 60 tooth versions) for those who want a lower ratio, but the durability of the thicker spur. Pete also reported good response to the MEC/MaxCim Turbo 10/20 brushless. Several teams in the electric airplane load-lifting competition purchased systems. The MEC-labeled versions, by the way, have had the current limiting set to a higher value in the controller - it is now 60A. No more running into current limiting doing vertical stuff.

There are models for speed 400 type motors popping up all over - lots of "cottage industries" as well as some of the larger modeling firms. Here are a few of them:

Brian Buass, of Raptor Aerosports, offers a speed 400 pylon racer called the Falconet. It has a glass fuse, foam cores, all the wood (including one of Tim McDonough's laser cut motor mounts), rolled plans and the hard to find hardware pieces. Specs. are: span: 32", area: 140 sq. in., length: 22 in, weight: 14.5-17 oz , wing loading: 15-17.5 oz./sq. ft, airfoil: RG-14 (thinned) The kit sells for $70 and is available from New Creations, Unbeaten Path Imports or direct from Raptor Aerosports. The kits are in stock and ready for shipment. For more information or digital pictures, contact Brian at: RaptorRC@wireless.wdc.com or on the web at http://wireless.wdc.net/~raptorrc/.

Chris Boultinghouse, of CAB Designs, is offering an all-composite S400 powered P-51 Mustang. This is 31 inch span model has a white pre-painted epoxy-glass fuselage with Kevlar and carbon fiber reinforcements. The tail surfaces are sheet balsa with epoxy-glass skins. Wings are extruded polystyrene with vacuum bagged epoxy-glass skins. No spars are used. Wing and tail skins are pre-painted during the bagging process, giving a high gloss, pin-hole free surface. Wings are bagged in one piece with correct dihedral and washout built in! This model is $124.95 plus $7 shipping, direct from CAB Designs. He also has a 1/8-scale Hurricane for retracts and Astro Flight 25/40 motors.
In recent discussions on Eflight and ModelNet, Chris has mentioned working on a composite version of the ElectroStreak, dubbed "Zapper", which will have a glass fuselage, and white foam/balsa skinned wings.
He's also working up some plans for foam models covered with brown paper, for those of us who don't have a vacuum bagging setup laying around.

Hobby Lobby came out with a new catalog #29, that includes the new Graupner Speed 480 motors (one of which is said to be essentially identical to the Kyosho AP-29). It also contains a composite scale model of the same plane type that Ivan Pettigrew - the PBY Catalina. This model is intended for two Speed 400 type motors and 7 or 8 cell batteries. It consists of a white fiberglass fuselage, pre-sheeted foam-core wings, balsa tail surfaces, and a bunch of molded parts (cowlings, nacelles, gun blisters, etc).
In their current catalog there is much S400 related and it's in the FRONT NOW! I acquired the Aeronaut Speed 400 motor timing tool. This consists of a brass collar which mounts to the front of the motor with two screws, another brass collar which has two pins which fit into the small holes in the motor's backplate and a rod to use as a handle on the second collar.
You clamp the first collar, with motor attached, in your vice, then use the handle on the second collar to twist the backplate in place, changing the motor's timing. If you don't have a pair of needle-nose or snap ring pliers which fit the backplate holes properly, this is a neat and effective tool.

Bill Griggs Models is now supplying more than just kits of his foam wing/balsa fuselage "Rocket" pylon racer (which came in second at the '96 NATS). He's expanded to include lots of things for S400 type models (motors, speed controls, and so forth) as well as his new kit of Don Belfort's S400 ducted fan "Electroscreamer". Bill's kit simplifies the construction of the plane a bit, by going to sheet fuselage sides and tail surfaces. Dennis Weatherly wrote a review of the kit which is posted on the E-Zone.
A notable product is a new micro-servo from Voltz in Germany. It is comparable in size and weight to the HiTec HS-60 (a little thinner and at 0.47 ounces a hair lighter), but it is also less expensive at $34.95 apiece and it has some other features including removable/replaceable mounting lugs. He also is stocking both the 10A and 20A version of Gordon Tarling's MicroStar speed controls.

One of the newer vendors on the scene is Unbeaten Path Imports of Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. Andrew is importing a large number of almost ready to cover/paint composite models for electric power or pure soaring. These include several scale subjects. Many of them are for Speed 400 type motors, including a Spitfire, a C-130, a Mosquito, and a Piaggio P-180 Avanti (this is a twin engine canard pusher biz-plane).
His other area of interest looks to be electric ducted fans of all sizes, from Speed 400 types on up.
And, for something really different, they have three "Jurassic era slope soarers". These are slope gliders which look like various types of flying dinosaurs! They are "painstakingly constructed accordingly to scientific studies, publications and fossils uncovered by paleontologists, modeled after the sculptures of Stephen Czarkas and the paintings of John Sibbick." How's that?

Aveox's product line continues to expand. In addition to new motors, they now are handling a full featured charger, Robbe and Aeronaut folding props, gold bullet connectors, several airplane kits, and more.
The charger is a version of the Robbe Power Peak Infinity, which is both a peak detector charger and a cycler (does programmed discharges, too) for 1-30 cell packs. One interesting feature is that it remembers the last 5 charges and discharges it has performed and you can recall the information to its display. They've proven popular with the ModelNet/Eflight crowd. They sell for $179.95.
Their airplanes include a couple of full-bore F5B type sailplanes, a mid-wing sport plane, a version of the Robbe Folland Gnat ducted fan ship (which can't even use an Aveox motor - it uses a Robbe 410 which longer but the same diameter as a Speed 400), and now a re-issue of Jim Zarembski's (Does anyone know where Jim is and what he's doing now? km) ElectraGlide II wood sport motorglider kit for $49.95, or $19.95 with a motor system purchase. (One of my very first electrics was a marginally successful ElectraGlide I. bc)
The easiest way to keep up with their changes is to visit http://www.aveox.com on the web frequently. Matt Orme is constantly upgrading and improving the site.

Another hot topic in the electronic discussion forum is a newer cell from Sanyo called the RC2000. It is said that this will replace the 1700 SCRC cells in Sanyo's line. They're pricier than the 1700's, as one would expect. Also, as one would expect, the best source is B&T R/C Supplies. They just quoted me $6.67 per cell, matched. That compares to $4.50, I think, for 1700 SCRCs. For comparison, I saw 6 cell matched packs made of RC2000's at Hale's R/C in Puyallup for $74.95. Comparably constructed packs of 1700 SCRCs were $49.95.
It is also said that there will be N-1250SCR cells the size of the old 900's or 1000's, but when I asked the gentleman at B&T about them he said "I've learned in the last year to believe it when I can hold it in my hands".

Sid Kauffman, of SLK Electronics, has created a new power system simulation program called ElectriCalc. This $30 program is just amazing in what it can tell those of us who like to do those "iterative solutions". Ben mentioned awhile back without spending all of our time and money testing power systems. The algorithms in the program are based on info in Bob Boucher's Electric Motor Handbook as well as other sources. So many people said so many good things about it that I had to try it myself (even though I don't have a Windoze-capable PC at home). It is quite a tool and I like it a great deal. You have control over battery characteristics, motor characteristics and some basic airframe characteristics as well. It comes with a large number of cell types and motor data pre-defined.
Adding to them is quite simple. It is also VERY easy to use. I was able to set it up to run off of a floppy here at work, with only an icon on the company machine's hard drive that points to it. It is compact enough I would think that any PC that can run Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 can run it just fine.
It can be had from several sources including SR Batteries, MaxCim, Aveox, Hobby Lobby, New Creations or direct from Sid. There's a good shot of the input screen on the Aveox web site, and more info can be had at the ElectriCalc web site at http://www.SLKelectronics.com/

Finally, with the demise of Model Builder magazine (ironically its 25th anniversary issue was its last) has left people wondering about their plans. An ad in the February 1997 R/C Report answers that question as follows: "MODEL BUILDER MAGAZINE PLANS now available". Send SASE for complete details, or Fax (702)897-7775. Bill Northrop's Plans Service.

Whew! Thanks for hanging in to the end!

I don't usually do product reviews. As a matter of fact, when a manufacturer sends me a product to evaluate, I almost always send it back with a nice note politely saying, "Thank you but I don't do product reviews."
Note that I said "almost". When Bob Boucher of Astro Flight sent me an early version of his Model 110D Charger, I "almost" sent it back, but decided to try it out.
Bernard has reviewed the 110D in a previous issue, but I'd like to say that I really like mine. Of all my chargers, it's my favorite. It's one of the few pieces of electric-power equipment I have that I consider worth the price if I had to buy it myself. It's reliable, simple to operate, and gives you enough data on your packs to take care of them.
Not that there aren't any problems. The leads are too short. The start button sticks. And it brags about its owner (displays "Property of Ben Almojuela"). But I understand that Astroflight has already addressed these problems.
So there. That's as close as I come to a review.
P.S. I intend to keep it unless you need it back Bob, OK?

For motor/reduction setups that spin props at 2000 to 7000 rpm's, 100 rpm resolution is unacceptable. Only one tach on the market will give better than an unacceptable 100 rpm resolutuion, but it costs about $130.00. To avoid purchasing an expensive piece of equipment that can only do one thing, I purchased a Digital Multimeter with frequency measurement capability to serve as a high resolution tach. It is a Techtronix DMM870, but any multimeter with frequency measurement capability will work. I simply use an NPN Phototransister with a resister and a single cell 3.6v lithium cell. This setup give me a tach with better than 1 rpm resolution.
Keep in mind that the output will be in hertz. So, for a two blade prop the output from the mutimeter will be multiplied by 30 to give rpm.
If you like, I can send you a simple diagram and a parts list.

Ken:
I received the following message below from Norbert Gruentjens, president of Ikarus, the company that manufactures EKO helicopters.
He is the winner of my $100 prize for the Helicopter Challenge and I emailed him to find his address so that I might send him a money order.
He has graciously offered to donate the prize to what I believe is the Silent Flight organization.
Would you happen to know their address and the name of an officer of the organization so that I may forward them a money order.
Thanks for your assistance - Martyn McKinney
(Can anyone help out here? I know there are the Silent Electric Flyers of San Diego. Could this be them? I don’t think any were in Toledo in ‘96 though. km)

Hi Martyn,
Sorry again for my late reply but we are really busy these days. Regarding the US $100 I am sure they are not for Ikarus as we are a professional company and we make our living from our day's work. But I met a few people in Tolado this year with a printed T-Shirt "Silent Flight". In case this is an organisation of electric flyers I would think that this is the correct address for the money. I am sure that once the American flyer is more familiar with electric drive technology this could be a future focus for the hobby industry. Let's start creating an interest now.
There is fantastic news on the developement of new motors here in europe that offer far better chances and longer flight times. I will spend some investigations and a lot of money. There will be results in the near future and I will keep you informed.
Best regards - Norbert.

I’ve been cleaning out my e-mail in-box and I’ve been sitting on this way too long. Anders Cestar, of Sweden, made a request for any plans that I may have for electrics. I’d planned to send him the Sorta PT, but it has taken much longer than expected.
If you’d like to help out an e-flier in Sweden, and have some “extra” plans just laying around, why not pop them off to him at:

Anders Cestar
Hjortstigen 3,2
974 53 Lulee
SWEDEN
Thanks for your help. Ken

I thought that I’d better give you a little more on the RV model. I can't take all the credit for the model, it was originally a Hand Launch Glider designed by John Stevens and called 'Eliminator 60'. John produces a Plan Pack with ribs and ply fuselage sides for around £11 Sterling. The model in original form is quite conventional, polyhedral wing and standard fin/rudder tailplane arrangement. The published weight is 14 ounces giving a wing loading of 4.72 ounces/square foot, wing section is Selig 3021.

Our 11th Annual DEAF Fly-In has been sanctioned by the AMA (#70684) for October 4th and 5th at the Dallas R/C Club Field in Seagoville. The competition scheduled is for LMR sailplane and Old Timer (events #610, 612 & 618). Additionally, we will continue the "Lightest R/C electric to fly 10 minutes" contest, 7-cell weight lifting, and some type of endurance event (either longest flight during whole weekend or an All-Up-Last-Down affair). We're still working on it at this date. We are taking reservations for frequencies. Provisionally, we would like to have some demos of the new Speed 400 pylon racers, so get yours built and practice up! We will have lots of awards, give-aways, DEAF brownies, insulated DEAF mugs, Saturday Night Buffet, extended flying hours, and lots and lots of flying. Mark your calendar now! For more information please contact Greg Judy, CD or Frank Korman, DEAF Newsletter Editor.

Frank Korman - email: FranKorman@dcccd.edu
DEAF WEB Site - http://web2.airmail.net/warner1/deaf/

Hi Ken,
This is part of a message I sent to Martin Irvine that I thought you might be interested in.
Keith

Meant to tell you that I pulled the battery (and radio) from the Flashback to put in the Messerschmitt. Since I had to reconfigure the pack and add some cells (I decided on 20, plane only weighs 4 oz more than the AF25/14-1800 combo), I decided to do a discharge test. I knew that I had at least one marginal cell, I could only do a vertical 4 point at the start of the routine. I did mass peak charge, c/10 for 1 hour to equilize, mass dischage until the first cell dropped (done by ocassionally checking the voltage of the five 3-cell stacks), finished each cell off with a constant current drain of 2 amp down to .9 volt. Found one cell @ 1300mAh, three @ 1500mAh, rest around 1700mAh! No wonder the zip was gone. By the way the 1300mAh cell always had a lower voltage under load (higher R). Did this procedure twice to see if anything improved - Nope. I'm really not looking foward to doing this to the Bearcat pack some time in the future!!!! Or the Stearman pack...

Your web site is marvelous and the information contained in the Ampeer is great (and the price is right!) No one else has anything like the Plane Ratings - I love to read them. (Hey folks, I could use some new ones. km)

I looked for them when there was a discussion going on about the speed 400's. I found one listing:
I found a Pan Head - slotted Zinc plated steel per DIN 85A at McMaster-Carr in Chicago. On page 2168 they list M2,6 in lengths from 4mm to 25mm. Phone 908-329-3200
One might also try "Transpec Fasteners, Inc." in Fort Worth, TX. 800-451-8160.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you don't find them, I have other sources that I could query if necessary.
Regards,
Tom Cimato - MaxCim Motors, Inc."

Regards,
Dave Segal - Keystone RC Club

Matt wrote to say that he appreciated the Ampeer and WEBsite and mentioned that he'd been flying his Mirage all winter long. I asked him for more details, which he kindly provided. km

Hi Ken -
I am using a Speed 500, 1200mAh 6 cell SCR packs and 8x4 wood props. My R/C system is a Futaba Attack with speed control and BEC built into the Rx. I was using a Graupner 8x4.5 folding prop, which worked fine, but without a brake, it didn't fold. The wood is OK, and they break before the motor shaft bends. I am hand launching with no landing gear.
(He then followed up with even more. km)
I sent you a message about the Mirage this morning, and didn't have time to expand on it. I am a lawyer, and my phone keeps ringing, which I suppose is a good thing. It does interfere with the imortant things in life, like flying R/C!
The Mirage was built about 4 years ago when I was trying to teach myself to fly. The first flight wiped out the cowl and engine mounts. I put the wreckage in the shop until last fall. Meanwhile, two years ago I joined the Kennebec Valley Model Aviators and learned to fly with the help of an instructor. I had built a Sig Kadet Senior powered by an OS 40. Still flying and a great plane. (Hey, isn't it about time to electrify it? km)
After getting the hang of flying R/C, I kept looking at electrics, which fascinate me. They are heavier and harder to fly, but they make little noise and there is no cleanup.
Well, I replaced the cowl on the Mirage with a fiberglass cowl. I purchased a Graupner Speed 500 motor, and I left the landing gear off, since it mounts in a slot, and it was wrenched loose in the original crash. I may put them back in this season, but my landings are no different than gliders.
I also built a Skimmer, and I liked it so much I built another. Skimmer I has a Goldfire motor and flies very well. Skimmer II has an Astro 05 with a Graupner 8x4.5 folding prop that flies on 7 SCR 1000 mAh cells. Skimmer II is a better performer.
The guys in my club all fly with IC motors, but they are impressed with my Skimmers. Many of them are starting to see that they can fly one almost anywhere, and thus they don't have to travel to the field all the time. It is a 25 mile trip for a few guys and a 12 mile trip for me. I fly the electrics in a park right near my house.
One member built a Lazy Bee with electric power, but it was totally destroyed in a crash. You know how that is. The airframe stops but the battery back keeps going!
I am not a chauvanist for one form of power over the other, but I really think that electrics will be the future. Even in relatively rural Maine it is hard to find places to fly due to noise. And, the power and duration of electrics is really making great strides.
I am currently building a 1/4 scale Sig J-3 Cub. Sorry, it will be powered by an OS 91 Surpass. However, I have a Seniorita kit under the workbench that has electric written all over it. Once the J-3 is done, I am going to try the Seniorita. I have an Astro 15 geared motor, but I think it will need a 25. (Yep. km) What do you think?
Thanks again for a super newsletter.
Matt

We will have a "flying meeting" on Saturday, May 31 at the Rushton Road Field in South Lyon starting about 10 AM. Remember that hand-launched planes are best flown from this field. If you think the weather is "iffy" call Ken. If he’s not there, there will be a message left on his answering machine.
The regular meeting will be Thursday, June 5th at Ken’s house, 1911 Bradshaw Court at 7:30 PM. The Mid-America Flies will be "planned" and "volunteers called for". Ken will also demonstrate "motor testing" and vacuum forming will be discussed and "possibly" demonstrated.
All folks within striking distance of the South Lyon field are invited to attend the flying (with your AMA card please) and the meeting.
Alternate flying day will be Sunday, June 1.

NOTE: Map was rotated to fit on page. North is to right as you view. To locate the Midwest R/C Society flying field, site of the 1997 Mid-America Electric Flies, look on the far left side of the map (top as viewed here), where X marks the spot near Five Mile Road and Napier. The field entrance is off of Five Mile Road. M-14 can be entered and exited via Beck Road.

Return to "What's In This Issue?"

Upcoming Events:

June 7 & 8 Tenth Annual Lehigh Valley Radio Control Society E-Fly, Mike Stewart, 107 Taft Terrace, Washgington, NJ 07882 as CD. For more info E-mail Mike at Mike721@worldnet.att.net or Phone: (908) 689-6981
June 7 & 8 EMFSO, EMFSO Electric Fun Fly, SOGGI Flying Field, Lynden, Ont. Bud Wallace (905) 274-3177 or Stan Shaw (519) 766-9966
June 13 - 15 First Annual Electric Fun Fly, the event will be held at the 3M RC Flyers site in St.Paul, MN: - 35 acres of well maintained grassy area - 3 paved runways at 45 degree increments to minimize crosswinds. Flyers will be required to show their AMA card to fly. Contact: Mike Roerig Tel: 612-778-6340 or email Mike at mlroerig@mmm.com
June 28/29 - Knights of the Air R/C Club, Springfield, Illinois, Tim McDonough, 127 S. Oaklane Road, Springfield, Illinois 62707 or Email Tim at tpm@inw.net To get more info here, in HTML format, Click Here
June 15 Fun Flying Day at the Wingdingers Fly In Howe, Indiana flying site, just below the Michigan border - literally. Open to all R/C aircraft but we had a very good turn out of e-power last year and would love to see more. Contact Clay Howe, e-mail Clay at clayhowe@net-link.net
June 28/29 - Kingston Radio Control Modellers, Electric Fun-Fly, Martin Irvine (613) 389-9457
July 12/13 - Mid-America Electric Flies, Ann Arbor Falcons/EFO, location, Midwest R/C Society Field, 5 Mi. Rd, Northville Twp, MI Ken Myers/Keith Shaw (see this issue)
Aug. 2 - 5 - AMA Headquarters, Muncie, IN Doug Ward, R.D. #1, Box 189. Irwin, PA 15642 (412) 446-5891or email Doug at DWard79207@aol.com
Aug. 16/17 Halton Hills, George Ball Memorial Electric Fun Fly, Ont. Geoff Miller (905) 454-5198
September 20 & 21 Queen City Airport, Allentown, PA: KRC - setup on the 19th. For more info e-mail Anthony Assetto at 102723.2566@compuserve.com
October 4 & 5 11th Annual DEAF Fly-In, Dallas R/C Club Field in Seagoville Greg Judy (817) 468-0962 or email 75267.224@compuserve.com