This is a link a Webpage that compliments and extends the information in the video. The page contains much, much information, including more problems and fixes, regarding OUR Apex Nano 187RB.
Learning what "reasonably" and safely actual meant was completed by investigating what "experts" had to say online about this topic. The information garnered during the investigation played a large part in our final decision. On this page, and its linked pages, I shared my findings.
The Webpages were frequently updated online when new information was found or modified.
We also had to determine if this was something that we really wanted to do once again.
During the thought and research period, I joined the Ascent Forums. I became very active in the Towing Forum using the user name of Ken Myers.
The members of the Towing Forum were exceptionally helpful and welcoming. I shared my thoughts with them and they, in return, provided a lot of useful information about towing with the Subaru Ascent.
At the beginning of November, 2019, I created a Webpage titled, "Subaru Ascent Real World Towing Examples". That page contains all of the trailers that have been reported as being towed by a Subaru Ascent on the Ascent Forums. Most of that information was originally posted to the Towing Forum. ALL TYPES of trailers are listed on that Webpage, not just travel trailers.
The "Subaru Ascent Real World Towing Examples" page is a good place to start to get an idea of the type of trailers that the Ascent is actually reported as towing.
The information found on all of my Webpages is also useful for people with tow packages on the Chevy Traverse, Ford Explorer and other vehicles with tow packages and that are rated with a 5000 lb. towing capacity and 500 lb. tongue weight.
The information on this page was left as is, so that anyone wanting more detailed information could still find it. It is also interesting to note that there are a few broken links, and yet the links were created only one year ago or less. That demonstrates how transient the information found on the World Wide Web actually is.
The original, last updated, Webpage follows as an archival document.
Summaries and Other Notes
My notes regarding the "Five Trailer Towing Mistakes RV Owners Make" video summary.
1. Not properly matching the tow vehicle to the trailer
a. How much weight can the vehicle actually tow? He notes that it is found in the owner's manual, this is hard to do with the Ascent because the 'actual' towing capacity is not really given. Yes, the weight of 5000 lb. is stated but... is it?
b. His advice is to find a trailer with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) equal to or less than the tow capacity of your vehicle.
2. Adding weight to the tow vehicle changes the tow capacity rating
a. He uses 5000 lb. for his example; 3 passengers for 350 lb., 150 lb. of cargo, 100 lb. of accessories added to the tow vehicle and a tongue weight of 350 lb. for a total of 1000 lb. This reduces the 5000 lb. towing capacity to 4000 lb. He notes that any weight added to the tow vehicle reduces the towing capacity by the amount of weight added to the tow vehicle.
It is extremely important to keep in mind the Ascent's Vehicle Capacity Weight Rating, p. 391, "Vehicle capacity weight - The load capacity of your vehicle is determined by weight, not by available cargo space. The maximum load you can carry in your vehicle is shown on the vehicle placard attached to the driver's side door pillar. It includes the total weight of the driver and all passengers and their belongings, any optional equipment such as a trailer hitch, roof rack or bike carrier, etc., and the tongue load of a trailer."
My Ascent 8-passenger Premium shows 1323 lb. Other trims will vary. My Premium has pkg #12, Popular Options #4 and the trailer hitch installed by Subaru during assembly, not at the dealership.
I received an email from Subaru Customer Service stating that the receiver hitch mount weighs 70 lb. and the ball mount, with no ball weighs 16 lb. Using my scales, I weighed the supplied ball mount. It weighed 13 lb.
3. Importance of Tires
a. Trailer tire weight ratings are based on the amount of air pressure in the tire
4. Not using the proper hitch work (we are limited to ball ONLY per Subaru)
a. Every component in the hitch system has its own rating, with the lowest component weight rating limiting the tow weight capacity.
5. Tongue weight should be 10% to 15% of the loaded trailer weight
Note: this is a very, very common statement and is either valid or 'believed' to be the best recommendation.
Conflicting information in the Subaru manual, p. 401, "Tongue Load - Ensure that the trailer tongue load is from 8 to 11 percent of the total trailer weight and does not exceed the maximum value of 500 lbs (227 kg)."
My notes and summary regarding the article "What Kind of Camper Can my Vehicle Tow? Guide to Safe Towing" by David Kreutzer.
"A general rule of thumb for a front wheel drive car or small SUV is 1500 pounds, a mid-size all-wheel drive SUV or pickup 3000 pounds and a full size SUV or half-ton pickup truck 5000 pounds. The weight limits can vary by large margins depending on how the car or truck is equipped and it is up to you to confirm the limits for your car or truck."
"You Can't Just Trust the Trailer Salesman - While shopping for a camper I had one salesman tell me that my Silverado could tow 8,500 lbs. He had all Silverado's listed as towing the same regardless of engine size and axle ratio. My truck could actually tow considerably less-6,800 pounds-because it had suspension code z85."
Some useful terms were defined in the article:
* Vehicle Payload is the weight of all of the gear, passengers plus the tongue weight of the trailer, it does NOT include the weight of your vehicle.
* Gross vehicle weight is the total weight of the car, passengers, gear, and fuel plus the tongue weight of an attached trailer.
* Curb weight is the weight of the vehicle without any payload or passengers. Gross vehicle weight minus payload.
* Combined gross vehicle weight rating (GCVWR) is the total weight the manufacture has determined the vehicle can handle including the vehicle, all passengers, cargo, and fuel plus attached trailers.
(This number, the GCVWR, is NOT available from Subaru for the Ascent via my emails regarding this number to Customer Service)
*Max trailer weight capacity is the most amount of weight that a vehicle can tow.
*Tongue weight is the amount of weight the tongue will put on the hitch.
*Max tongue weight is the maximum amount of weight that can be put on the hitch and is included in the max payload. This may vary depending on the type of hitch being used. Example, it maybe 500 pounds for a weight bearing hitch and 1200 pounds for a weight distributing hitch.
*Dry weight is how much the camper weighs without adding any water, gas or gear.
(This is also known as the unloaded vehicle weight (UVW))
*Max trailer payload is the maximum amount of gear, water and gas that can be safely carried in the trailer. The dry weight plus the max trailer payload equals the trailer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).
*Trailer Gross vehicle weight is the total weight of the trailer with all contents. (This is NOT the trailer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR))
"So How Big of a Camper Can I Tow? The first place to look when determining out how much your specific vehicle can tow is the owner's manual."
"What does properly equipped mean? There are several options to look for when purchasing a tow vehicle. These options are usually listed as tow package, heavy-duty suspensions package or a max towing package and include things like transmission oil coolers, heavy duty shocks and hitch receivers."
"Large Gas Tanks - Larger gas tanks are very convenient, especially on a road trip..."
"Axle Ratios - Axle ratios will impact how the vehicle tows. Taller gears like 3.73 or 4.10 will have the engine revving higher while going down the highway so that the engine is in its power band, where it is making the most torque and horsepower.
Short gears like the 3.15 or 3.29 will get better mileage but will tow less weight and you may have to run in a lower gear when going down the highway..."
The Ascent's is 4.44.
"How do I find out if the car is properly equipped for towing? If there is a hitch this does not automatically mean it has the tow package.
Be cautious of dealer advertisements. Many will list tow package in the description but it may just have the hitch receiver and not the full tow package."
He describes how to do further research and where to look for other towing info for the tow vehicle.
"How much can I really tow? Many people recommend giving yourself a buffer on the max tow weight. If your truck can tow 5,000 pounds your trailer should not exceed 4,000 pounds."
"How will max tongue weight limit the trailer size?"
He gives examples based on the 10% - 15% usual recommendation
Next he mentions power loss of the engine due to weather and elevation and gives an example. He notes, "The best practice would be to give yourself a 10 -15% buffer on your max trailer weight. This will give you some power reserves for weather and elevation changes. If you regularly drive through the Mountains maybe go as high as 20%. The elevation changes effect turbo charged engines less but it is still better to be safe than sorry."
The Ascent has a turbo.
Next he covers maximum trailer frontal area. "For small cars, it could be less than 25 feet (5 by 5). For trucks and larger SUVs it could be as high as 60 feet (7.5 by 8). The aero dynamics of the trailer will play a big role in factoring this. A sloping front is better than a flat front and will allow for a larger total surface area because its drag will be less."
This is something that many people don't pay enough attention to.
There is a calculator on his Webpage. I found it confusing to use and somewhat circular in its results.
"How much does a Trailer weigh? Be sure not to use shipping weight (UVW)-the weight used by the manufacture to ship the trailer to the dealer-or the dry weight the weight of the trailer before adding any water, propane, smores supplies, bedding and any other gear to the trailer.
When looking at trailers online be sure to note how the weight of the trailer is being described and verify the gross vehicle weight is within the capacities of your vehicle before buying it."
Next he talked about the trailer payload and gives an example of HIS estimated gear list weights which can be used as a guideline to make your own estimations.
He gave examples of Example Cars and Trailers with Towing Capacity Estimates.
Most interesting when using the Ascent;
"Medium-light Car - Standard size SUV like the Ford explorer and Honda Pilot.
Max towing capacity is 5000 pounds
Trailer - Many vehicles in this class have towing capacities up to 5,000 pounds. They can handle a small travel trailer in the 14-19 foot range. The dry weights on these are around 2,500 pounds although some may be heavier depending on options. These will offer expanded space, bunks, bathrooms, cook tops, air-conditioning and couches. Amerilite by Gulfstream offers several trailers that have combined weights (dry or UVW weight plus usable payload KM) under 3,500 pounds."
Finally he has links to towing guides for the typical American made tow vehicles.
Camping World- Sells Great-Grandmother a $90,000 RV UPDATE
Videos Demonstrating Problems and Frustrations That May Have Been Avoided
RVs, of all types, are owned by millions of people in the USA and Canada. Only an almost insignificant number of those owners post on Websites, YouTube, or other 'social media' about their experiences. Almost all of the people who post have had a problem, or problems, that they wish to share. The vast majority of the owners, those having a great experience, never post on electronic media. Keep that in mind while watching these videos.
Also, ask yourself, "What and/or who, was the underlying cause of the problem?"
Many, but not all, of the videos were posted by a person who felt frustrated with their RV. The links go to the actual YouTube videos. It is important to note what was demonstrated in the video and also the comments posted to the Youtube post.
KZ Connect C281BH Travel Trailer Issues Part 1 Demonstrates fit and finish issues. The trailer was only one week from the purchase date when the video was made. They had camped in it by then.
Problems: Outside shower not secured to trailer box it sets in, no backer board for TV, 'banged up' wood from, and during, installation, poor workmanship on installing cabinets and shelves, access panel cut too short, when bed is lifted to access the under the bed storage it knocks off the curtain every time, 110V plug cover falls off box that plugs are in and the plastic box itself is crushed in and not secured, fabric slit to far and is running through the top of the dinette seat
KZ Connect C281BH Travel Trailer Issues Part 2 Continued from previous video. Demonstrates fit and finish issues as well as what had to be done by the owner to bring it up to his expectations.
Problems: Screws missing from hinges, poor quality switch outlet fixture, windows coming out and caulking not there or cracked, no calking along edge of roof and gutter and AC condensation water runs down the trailer side, slide out trim falls down and is not secured, pencil marks on trailer sides from applying decals, shower curtain fixture not secured well and curtain falls down, major problem - shower would not support weight of owner, shower surround not secured well and wavy, top of shower surround pops out and is not secured
It is MY opinon that the man in the above two videos should have done his own pre-delivery inspection as he had previously owned a travel trailer and he should have created a 'fix it' list, called a punch list in the industry, before he paid for it and went 'over the curb'.
Forest River's Prime Time Crusader & poor RV quality The problem is that the fusebox pulled away from the wall. A PDI check of turning all accessible screws to see if they are secured to anything might have found this problem. The trash he finds behind the fusebox demonstrates the lack of care by the individuals assembling the trailer.
How You Find Out Your Brand New RV Is A Total Lemon Issues: roller shades doen't work correctly, light under sink doesn't work, LED light over the bed strobes, LED light in closet doesn't light it well, kitchen sink not caulked and sink brackets twisted, DC to AC converter problem, powered awning doesn't roll out on its own, slide awning disconnected, compartment door doesn't latch or lock, inverter not in a good location and causes problems for the inverter, hydraulic fluid sloshes out reservoir while unit is moving, inverter was flooded, dump tank levers snapped off cables, a second slide awning problem, slide out not aligned properly, side panel bulging,
Our RV Lemon - Brand New RV Completely Built Wrong Problems: Huge wave in wall (delamination), gray tank valve stuck open which resulted in exposing under trailer wiring and underbody to remove gray tank plumbing
There is a lot more about this Lemon that can be found in his YouTube videos list.
I highly recommend you watch their whole series of videos regarding this lemon!
Jayco Jay Flight 26BH QUALITY WARNING! Watch Before Buying! Problems: shoddy workmanship on panels, trim and panel chips, drainboard laminate seam popped between sink and stove, many of the screws in the trailer do not go into anything, latches don't close, laminate around bathroom sink is delaminating, loose trim, problem with seam in wall between door and dinette seat, something under trim running across ceiling near dinette,
A good PDI might have helped some. NEVER expect warranty work to get done. Don't pay for the trailer until you satisfied with it, or walk away. There are always other trailers available!
Update: New JayCo Trailer FALLING APART. Lengthy Warranty Work Needed. Update on previous video. Notes that he likes the exterior. Pulled by Chevy Traverse.
Problems after 4 trips: back of dinette seat by door broke off, wall between sofa and bed broke loose, trim is coming loose, drainboard trim loose by stove, refrigerator leaking, refrigerator not working correctly, even more trim coming loose, nails sticking out of trim piece
From the rest of his YouTube videos it appears that the gentleman in the above two videos never got any resolution to his 'warranty' problems. He is look for other travel trailers and toy haulers.
Gulfstream Vintage cruiser review Problems: plywood under dinette seats not cut to fit correctly, dinette seats don't fit well on top of the dinette seat frames, globes fall off light fixtures over the dinette, TV mount does not allow TV to swing out enough to be seen from bed, wooden framing not cut to fit certain parts (too long) allowing gaps, holes in linoleum flooring filled with something and looks terrible
A good PDI would have revealed a lot.
JAYCO WARRANTY ISSUES 6 Month Ownership This unit is sold in Australia. It shows that the problem is endemic to the industry. He uses the term van, for caravan which is another name for a travel trailer around the world.
Problems: washing machine leaking, water pump blips on and off all of the time (leak?), door handle catches stick, under bed drawer doesn't catch, outdoor shower leaks and has leaked into the storage compartment below, outdoor shower does not work, black stuff dripping down side of van from windows, roof is all "rippled", had to repair battery wiring under the bed
His experience has been that Jayco Australia does take care of stuff under warranty.
Some of the issues might have been missed on a good PDI but others were pretty obvious.
New Jayco Fifth Wheel falling apart! Aug. 17, 2018, video of 1/2 hour of radio broadcast by The RV Show USA. Alan Warren, host, and Rick Dalton, a lawyer, discuss problems with RVs and callers add their input.
KeyStone RV Quality Control Review - Montana High Country Leaking Extremely poorly videoed talking head about problems with their unit.
Problems: Major water leaks in great quantities during a rain storm and soaking much of the trailer, water filled light fixture, trim is pealing and bubbled, a second leak appeared in a different place, door nob will not tighten, kitchen sink faucet only trickles into sink and it took 25 minutes to fill sink with water
Leaks are hard to detect during even the best PDI.
New RV Disaster, Camping World Did not Test It Problems: sink leaks in middle of night causing flood, slide doesn't fit correctly, bad inverter, carpeting is all wrinkled, trim piece keeps door from shutting in the bedroom, complains about Camping World not doing the PDI they paid for, slide in bedroom 2.5" off, cracked trim, hinge screws prevent door from closing, "beat up trim", laminate counter tops are all scratched up, blinds don't work
They did get most of the things fixed under warranty
A decent PDI should have caught most of these issues.
More RV Drama! Gonna Push This Rig off A Bridge Continued problems from above video. Inverter and converter problems continue, A/C box to refrigerator does not work so had to jury-rig the frig plug in, USB ports don't work,
It appears that the same family from the above two videos replaced that 5th wheel trailer with a new one in 2016 and had some problems with that one as well, as shown below.
RV Tip #10 - RV Build Quality? Describes the aluminum welding on a Rockwood Mini Lite, which appears to be of poor quality.
Owner Review: 2015 Salem by Forest River 31KQBTS Problems: Upper berth window doesn't work well, shower surround was originally not caulked, dinette table does not fit down to make the dinette into a bed between the two benches, relay under TV was not working correctly - it is located in an unusual place, bench back trim doesn't fit (too short), front side window keeps door from opening,
A good PDI would have spotted many of these PROBLEMS
Shadow Cruiser 2013 260BHS buyers beware, NO QUALITY CONTROL HERE!!!!! Problems: back wall had to be replaced, plumbing wasn't connected to the shower and toilet, cracked and poorly installed linoleum, top of front storage compartment not secured, speakers were not connected, light fixtures poorly installed, mini-blind hold downs in the wrong place, wall paper on the wall is lifting, cracked cross-trim on inside ceiling, trim 'beat up' from the factory, caulking on shower surround done poorly, couch was installed crooked, bedroom door warped, trim coming off along the roof, poor repair of underside
Part 3 from above. A good PDI would have spotted many of these PROBLEMS and overseeing the repair work better
Coleman 1805RB follow up Problems: rockguard is plastic, door can't open all the way if awning is open, there were issues with cabinets and the slide out, split wood in cabinets, drawers in bathroom were not anchored in the back and wouldn't stay locked shut for travel, air conditioning vent over bed did not work
Some design issues and some a good PDI would have caught
2018 Coleman Lantern 17FQ BH things you need to know Problems: Only one opening for outside storage, only about 6.5' tall on interior, has metal mini-blinds and not shades, air conditioning unit not big enough to handle trailer, front cabinet storage is limited by slope of trailer, plastic table leg holders, dinette table not laminated, small truck camper style refrigerator w/freezer took about 10 hours to cool, thermostat in odd place
Things he really should have noticed before purchasing the trailer.
Coleman travel trailer Watch before you buy Problems: Murphy bed doesn't latch easily, jackknife sofa is difficult to use, Murphy bed already broken
Discusses problems with this lower quality unit and tradeoffs because of that tradeoff.
BUYER BEWARE - Eclipse Stellar, Iconic, Attitude toy hauler review - VERY POOR QUALITY CONTROL Problems: Extremely poor caulking on seems between front and sides of trailer, screw sticking out on screen door, putty on edge of cabinet near door, dents on hood vent side, wrong screws used throughout, cabinet crooked and countertop not caulked, cabinets mared in many places, range top doesn't fit on stove, dent in brand-new frig door, sink faucet on crooked, trim piece broken off not cut, shower surround not done well at all, can't get hands under faucet in bathroom sink, poor caulking job on shower surround, shower curtain bracket not screwed in, license plate lights on crooked, hose clamp not tightened, generator doesn't fit generator frame,
It seems that absolutely no PDI was performed by anyone at any time.
He has even more on this trailer here.
Chevy Silverado 1500: 139.6" to 157"
Chevy Silverado 2500: 133.6" to longest 167.3"
note: the 3500 is only slightly different than the 2500 by 1/2 inch
Chevy Suburban: 130"
Chevy Tahoe: 116"
Ford F-150: 122" to 163"
Ford F-250 & F350: 142" to 172"
Ford F-450: 142" to 176"
Ford Expedition: 122.5"
RAM 1500: 140.5" to 153.5 "
RAM 2500: 140.5" to 169"
RAM 3500: 140" to 169.5"
Dodge Durango: 119.8"
Tow Vehicle Wheelbase to Total Travel Trailer Length Chart
The column titled "Trailer Length Feet" denotes the maximum trailer length based on the tow vehicle wheelbase to trailer length rule of thumb. The rule of thumb states, "when starting out with a 110" wheel base tow vehicle, you can safely tow a 20' trailer. Then for every 4" of additional wheelbase, you can add another foot of trailer."
Information on Towing Dynamics and the Physics of Towing
Much of the rest of the world calls a Travel Trailer a Caravan.
Much of the rest of the world also uses the metric system of measurement, not the Imperial system used in the USA.
Some useful conversions to keep in mind when reading the following Websites:
kilometers per hour (kph) to miles per hour (mph) multiply kph by 0.621371
i.e. 100kph times 0.621371 = 62.1371 mph
Since the links open in a new tab, it is easy to switch back to this page to reference some of the metric unit equivalents used on the Websites.
Some of the interesting articles on this Website in the UK:
Understanding the dynamics of towing The sections include; The Basics, Understanding a twin axle, Nose Weight (AKA tongue weight), Other Effects, Wind Loading and Nose Weight, and Effects of Inclines.
Understanding the dynamics of towing - Pt 2 This article discusses wheelbase and tow bar length and provides the math to do come calculations, but it does NOT discuss the 110" wheelbase to 20' (240") rule of thumb. The sections include; Wheelbase and tow bar length, Does the length of the wheelbase matter?, Tyres (AKA tires), and a summary of both articles.
Understanding over-run brake systems This article does NOT apply directly to USA towing, but I found it interesting. Most of the caravans in the UK use surge brakes which they call "over-run" brakes. Over-Run brake systems are fitted to all caravans in the UK and all trailers that are rated above 750Kg/1653 lb. weight capacity.
This Website is located in Australia and designed to market the author's books, but there is also a Lot of valuable free information here.
Tow Vehicle/Trailer Weight Ratio RV Books' Recommendation is that those new to towing should tow a laden trailer that is no heavier than 80% of the laden weight of the tow vehicle. Experienced towers could tow up to about 90%, always keeping a 10% margin for error below the critical 1-to-1 ratio in case of emergency. Just as importantly, the closer you are to the 1-to-1 ratio, the lower your towing speed should be.
All of the trailers, that I am considering, even the heaviest, fall within the 80% recommendation from above.
Ten Tips for Safe Towing a few notes:
Tip Four: Tow Ball Mass (AKA tongue weight) Make sure your trailer's front end is heavier than its rear. For camper trailers (pop-ups), not less than 5% of the trailer's laden weight should be on the tow ball. For Australian caravans (travel trailers) the percentage should be 7% to 10% (the longer and heavier the caravan, the higher the percentage needed). UK/EU-made caravans need 6% to 7%.
This mass must remain reasonably constant, not varying as water tank content varies. Tow ball mass has been long proven to be related to critical speed - the lower the percentage of trailer weight on the tow ball, the lower the critical speed. Any trailer with less than 4% tow ball mass is virtually an accident waiting its opportunity to happen, as its critical speed may be as low as 50 km/h. Find out more about critical speed here. The last word, here, above leads to the article "Why Caravan Rollovers Happen - updated Dec. 2018"
My thought: This could explain why Subaru recommends 8% to 11% (p. 401 of manual) of the loaded trailer as the tongue weight. It appears that the trailers they expect the Ascent to pull could be shorter and lighter than 'typical' American travel trailers.
Tip Seven: Tow Vehicle Choice
Choose a tow vehicle that:
Has a maximum towing capacity far greater than the laden weight of your trailer
Has an adequate maximum tow ball allowance for your trailer
Has the shortest possible distance from rear axle to tow ball
This was a new concept to me, 02/18/2018.
Find out more about choosing the right tow vehicle here.
Tip Eight: Trailer Choice
Choose a trailer that:
Is as light as possible
Is as short as possible
Has the longest possible distance between the tow ball and its centre of mass (extended A-Frames help at the expense of increased turning circles)
How a Weight Distributing Hitch Works I found an Interesting comment in this article. "Correctly balanced rigs - where the laden caravan is lighter that the laden tow vehicle - have no need for a WDH. RV Books strongly recommends this approach. Ongoing police roadside checks, however, show that almost 80% of all rigs are overweight. Many caravans are far heavier than whatever tows them. Here again, RV Books advises owners to remedy this - but, if not feasible, to use that WDH."
My thought: This may explain why Subaru recommends no WDH be used along with the automatic trailer stability built into the Ascent.
More interesting and enlightening reading can be found by clicking the Article and/or Technical tabs at the top of the RV Books homepage.
02/24/19
TOWING -TOWBALL WEIGHT AND TRAILER STABILITY Science outweighs the rule of thumb. This article attempts to answer this question; WHY DO THE AUSSIES AND YANKS INSIST ON 10-15-PERCENT TOWBALL WEIGHT, WHILE THE EUROPEANS ARE CONTENT WITH AROUND SIX PERCENT?
TOWING SPEED IS THE MAIN REASON FOR THE DIFFERENCE AND THAT MAKES THE AUSTRALIAN PRACTICE SOMETHING OF A MISFIT.
My Notes from the SAE article "Stability and Control Considerations of
Vehicle-Trailer Combination"
The two types of trailer instability
Divergent instability depends only on the parameters of the towing vehicle and on the vertical hitch load. The vertical hitch load, tongue weight, is affected by the trailer mass and the location of the trailer center of gravity in the longitudinal direction. Reducing the tongue weight, or equivalently moving the trailer center of gravity rearward, improves the stability margin with respect to divergent motion.
Snaking motion stability (trailer sway) depends on the parameters of both the towing vehicle and the trailer. The system, meaning both the trailer and tow vehicle, becomes unstable beyond a certain speed. The required speed at which the system becomes less stable is caused by several factors.
1) the weight of the trailer (relative to the vehicle's weight) increases
2) the center of gravity of the trailer moves rearward
3) the moment of inertia of the trailer increases (?)
4) cornering stiffness of trailer tires decreases (interesting)
5) cornering stiffness of the vehicle's rear tires decreases
6) the distance from the vehicle rear axle to the hitch point increases
7) vehicle wheelbase decreases.
Even for a specific vehicle-trailer combination, most of these parameters can be greatly altered by changing what is in control of the user, such as weight distribution or tire type and tire pressure. The tability of the vehicle-trailer combination cannot be guaranteed by selecting the passive design parameters. It requires active control ny the user.
I have seen those seven parameters on other Websites.
Cost effective solutions to improve stability and handling of vehicle-trailer combinations have been implemented by utilizing only brake actuators and sensors from the towing vehicle's electronic stability control (ESC) system. In essence, two control methods have been considered:
one is a symmetric braking of the towing vehicle with the objective of bringing the vehicle speed below the critical
speed (e.g. [12]);
the second is control of the yaw moment of the towing vehicle via asymmetric braking.
The vehicle without a trailer has the damping ratio which decreases with speed from 1 to about 0.5 at about 100 mph. For the vehicle with trailer, one pair of eigenvalues has a slightly higher damping ratio than for the vehicle alone. The other pair of eigenvalues has a low damping ratio (below 0.3) at speeds above about 37 mph it becomes negative at about 71 mph. Above about 71 mph the model of a vehicle with trailer becomes unstable. In the speed range between about 37 mph)and about 71 mph), the vehicle with trailer will exhibit oscillatory response, but with oscillations slowly
decreasing with time. Above about 71 mph, the oscillations initiated by any driver input or external disturbance will grow exponentially.
SYMMETRIC BRAKING of the towing vehicle without the trailer braking has the following second-order effects on the
yaw dynamics of the system:
1) It introduces longitudinal inertial force at the trailercenter of mass, which creates a destabilizing moment acting on the trailer (that is, a moment that tends to increase the hitch angle
2) It changes the normal loads of the vehicle and trailer axles, which in turn affect the cornering stiffness values
for each axle.
3) It produces tire slips of front and rear axles of the towing vehicle which tend to reduce the lateral cornering stiffness of these axles.
DIFFERENTIAL BRAKING - In contrast to symmetric braking, differential braking can directly affect the system eigenvalues at any speed. Within the model considered here, differential braking is modeled as a direct yaw control input applied to the towing vehicle.
I believe this is vehicle onboard trailer sway control
Asymmetric braking of towing vehicle via electronic sway control (ESC) is more effective in stabilizing the snaking oscillations than symmetric braking.
Correspondence With Haul Gauge
The following are my email exchanges with Haul Gauge.
This is the info I submitted via the contact form on their Website on Feb. 21, 2019
NAME - Ken Myers
EMAIL - xxxxx
PHONE - xxxxx
MESSAGE
Will the Haul Gauge work with a CVT transmission such as found on the 2019 Subaru Ascent?
Thanks,
Ken
Thomas Corie tcorie@halllogic.com
Re: New submission from HaulGauge contact form
To: Kenneth Myers
February 21, 2019 at 10:36 AM
Good morning Ken,
Thank you for contacting HaulGauge.
HaulGauge works with CVT transmissions; the main requirements are that the vehicle have a torque converter and an OBD-II port. We have tested in Subarus and HaulGauge has worked great!
While no calibration exists yet for the 2019 Subaru Ascent, the app will guide you through a 5-10 minute drive to create a calibration.
HaulGauge is offering a $20 bounty for calibrations. After calibration, send a picture of your VIN to info@haulgauge.com. Our team will verify your calibration and refund $20 of the purchase price.
Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions. You can call us at (801) 692-7224
Thank you,
Thomas
Systems Engineer
HaulGauge
Kenneth Myers Re: New submission from HaulGauge contact form
To: Thomas Corie February 22, 2019 6:03 AM
Hi Thomas,
Thanks so much for the information.
When setting up, it is noted that the vehicle needs to be on level ground.
How is the level determined for the vehicle? That is, does a level need to be used, and if so, where should it be placed?
Do come kind of physical measurements need to be taken?
How does the gasoline load affect level?
Thanks again,
Ken
Thomas Corie Re: New submission from HaulGauge contact form
To: Kenneth Myers
February 22, 2019 11:24 AM
Hi Ken,
Good questions!
When hitting the 'Set Level' button during set-up, we just recommend putting the vehicle on ground that seems level and putting it in Neutral to see if the vehicle rolls. If the vehicle doesn't roll, the ground is sufficiently level.
The gasoline load, depending on the vehicle, can change how much the vehicle weighs but shouldn't have a significant effect on the vehicle's level.
Since HaulGauge is generally accurate to +/- 5% (like other automotive gauges), we advise users to only worry about their fuel level if, for example, the tank were completely empty vs completely full (usually a difference of about 200 lb, depending on the tank size); in that case they would just have to recognize that the HaulGauge could report a lower weight when completely empty.
Please feel free to call us at (801) 692-7224 if you have any other questions.
The Hayes Sway Master operates both sides of the trailer brakes at the same time, while the Tuson Electronic Sway Controller operates each trailer side's brakes independently.
Info on the Hayes Sway Master
The video shows independent testing of the Tuson Electronic Sway Controller with both the tow vehicle's trailer stability control on and off. This indicates to ME that it might work well with the Ascent.
Lippert Sway Command Tow Control Technology
The Lippert unit also uses both side brakes at the same time, like the Hayes unit.
These three units have been around for quite awhile. If these units actually work, why haven't they already been added to applicable travel trailers from the manufacturer, especially those manufacturers using Lippert frames?
03/01/19 All three of the above units have had recalls, as recently as July of 2018. It appears that Jayco had the option to add the Lippert unit to some of their line of travel trailers, but they were recalled in 2016. The problem involved the integrated trailer brake unit found in newer tow vehicles, like pickup trucks.
There are almost no consumer reviews of the products to be found online. There are NO reviews on Amazon for these sway control units.
No reviews on e-trailer for the Tuson or Lippert units.
02/26/19
Trailer Sway Control Methods - Explained and Compared is an article that compares three methods of sway control; hitch mounted mechanical friction sway control, symmetric trailer brake sway control and asymmetric trailer brake sway control. The article applies directly to the electronic braking systems noted above.
My notes from the article are here. The conclusion is that asymmetric braking provided by the tow vehicles electronic sway control (ESC) is much better than symmetric braking when no ESC is on the vehicle.
02/23/19
After viewing the video and noting the information found in the Trailer Towing Dynamics and Physics articles, I think it would help improve the tendency not to sway by traveling with empty tanks, whenever possible.
A PRACTICAL EXAMPLE 12/11/2018
I found a series of videos on YouTube that had a lot of information on towing the type of trailer I am thinking about towing with my 2019 Ascent Premium trim. His vehicle is NOT an Ascent, but it is similar.
His vehicle and its specifications along with 2019 Ascent comparisons: 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe XL (XL indicates the larger 3-row version)
V6 horsepower 290 @ 6400RPM - 2019 Ascent 260 hp @ 5600RPM
Torque 252 lb·ft @ 5,200 rpm - 2019 Ascent 277 lb-ft @ 2000
Towing capacity 5000 lb. - 2019 Ascent 5000 lb.
Maximum hitch weight 500 lb. - 2019 Ascent 500 lb.
Wheelbase: 110.2" - 2019 Ascent 113.8"
Fuel Economy as Noted From His Videos for His Vehicle: City - 12.9 L/100km (18.2 mpg) - 2019 Ascent Premium trim 21 mpg, Limited & Touring trims 20 mpg
Highway - 9.4 L/100km (25 mpg) - 2019 Ascent Premium trim 27 mpg, Limited & Touring trims 26 mpg
Combined - 11.3 L/100km (20.8) - 2019 Ascent Premium trim 23 mpg, Limited & Touring trims 22 mpg
His series of videos on YouTube are important because they document towing the type of trailer I am considering with a 3-row SUV that is similar to the 2019 Ascent. Unfortunately, the very soft spoken gentleman, Ralph, chose to put background music on some of his videos and his narration, at times, gets lost under the music. He also covers the research he did before purchasing his specific KZ trailer.
This is a link to all of his YouTube videos about his setup and trip. I've included only a few below, but it is a good idea to take a look at all of them.
RV TRAVELS -Sante Fe 2017 XL V6 as Tow Vehicle, May 8, 2018
In this video he discusses his tow vehicle. He misread the tag. He says "2550 pounds" when he meant kilograms. 2500Kg is 5622 lb. He notes that he added suspension air bags to his vehicle.
RV TRAVELS, May 22, 2018
In this video Ralph discusses the research he did on selecting a travel trailer for his Santa Fe XL and preparing for their trip.
RV TRAVELS - Sante Fe Towing a Travel Trailer - set up, May 22 2018
In this video he discusses his trailer and the weights of his vehicle and trailer as weighed on a CAT scale. He also notes the modifications made to the trailer and why. Also noted is a Trailer Hitch Ball Capacity Scale I'd never seen before. In a video not presented here, he notes the tongue weight as 440 lb.
RV TRAVELS - INSIDE THE KZ180QB, TOWED BY A SANTE FE, May 29, 2018
In this video he discusses what they were looking for in a travel trailer. I noted in this video, as well as previous videos, that the trailer does not look level when hitched up and being pulled.
RV TRAVELS - MID TRIP SANTE FE TOWING REVIEW, June 30, 2018
In this video he discusses his trip from Toronto to Prince Edward Island through the northern New England states of the US. In the beginning frame of the video, it looks like his ball mount could be reversed to drop the ball lower and level the trailer when it is hitched to the vehicle.
He notes that on the scales it comes in at just over 3,400 lb. In this video he notes the tongue weight as 460 lb. He mentions that it pulls best at 90 to 95 Kph (56 mph to 59 mph) but not at 100 Kph (62 mph).
The Santa Fe XL, without the trailer attached averages 7.5l/100Km to 8. (31.4 mpg to 29 mpg)
With the trailer attached, the average is 18l/100Km to 22l/100Km (13 mpg to 10.7 mpg)
RV TRAVELS - SUV'S TOWING VARIOUS TRAILERS, Sept. 14, 2018
In this video he shares other travel trailers he found during his trip that were mostly being pulled by SUVs. The Prolite brand trailers, seen in this video, are made in Quebec province. There is a dealer here in southeastern Michigan, and the Prolite Supreme and Classic are on my trailer research page.
At approximately 2:20 into the video it shows what appears to be a Subaru Outback parked by a Prolite Envasion.
RV TRAVELS ADDITIONAL COSTS TO RVING / TOWING A TRAVEL TRAILER, July 24, 2018
In this video he notes the actual costs of owning a Travel Trailer with all of 'other' stuff that must also be purchased. These extra costs are discussed in several videos on my page titled "Information On Purchasing & Maintaining a Travel Trailer That I Found Useful". They are listed in the section titled "Other Essentials When Purchasing a Towable RV".
I have also created a list of my 'wants' and 'needs' if we decide to do this. It is not complete, but it is a start.
My Continually Growing List and more specifically My RV Essentials with sources and pricing listed. I have reached an additional $4,250 of initial items at this time.
The link is to a Toyota 4 Runner forum post. The vehicle is a 2016 Toyota 4 Runner with similar specs to the 2019 Ascent. The 4 Runner specs show a 2.4L V-6 with 270hp, 278 pound-foot of torque and towing capacity of 5,000 lb. The "trailer is a 2012/2013 Forest River Flagstaff Micro-Lite 19FD, 19 ft long, rated 2900# dry from the factory so figure 3500# ready to go with 2 bottles of propane, dual 6V golf cart batteries, camping gear, and empty tanks." There are photos to accompany the text.
